A newcomer's comment
Question:
Papa Jack <papa_j…@geocities.com> wrote: >Jim Rogers wrote: >> Papa Jack wrote: >>> Now some of the Pro-Abortion Righters may attack you for >>> admitting you suffer from PAS. > ===================================================================== >> Jim Rogers wrote: >> Why would you suggest such a mean-spirited thing, PJ? > ===================================================================== >Papa Jack commented: >Because I’ve observed PARs react in very mean-spirited ways to >newbies before.
I think you’re confused. You’re thinking of the mean-spirited way you react to every woman who posts her abortion story here if she *isn’t* prostrated with grief and guilt. >I totally agree with you that there is never any call to >"attack someone harboring regrets and feeling depressed >about it."
But there *is* a call to attack anyone who is *not* full of regret and depression, of course. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->One of the favorite explanations are like the one recently >given by Webgiant: > …the studies performed on women who have had > abortions show that the "lingering emotional > problems" occur invariably in the women who were > clinically depressed PRIOR TO the abortion. The > women who were not clinically depressed were not > depressed after the abortion, and continued not > to be depressed during follow-up studies. > So the evidence for PAS is very slim and largely > anecdotal, while the actual studies show that PAS > is probably Pre-Abortion Clinical Depression. >Talk about mean spirited!!
Was this post directed at an individual grieving woman? No? How about that. Papa Jack would attempt to censor free discussion of the issues and trample on the First Amendment rights of anyone who disagrees with the Pro-Life trained seals on PAS. No thanks, Papa Jack. We don’t need your kind of tyranny. >This explanation attempts to intimi- >date women who have had abortions — "If you say you feel depres- >sed AFTER the abortion, we will tell the world what a totally >neurotic bitch your really are!"
Leave it to Papa Jack to read "totally neurotic bitch" into "clinically depressed." >This is an old story, Jim. We’ve had Pro-Life newbies repeatedly >attacked for the entire two years that I’ve been posting. Par- >ticularly those who told "their story."
And you’ve personally and viciously attacked every woman who posted her abortion story here if she wasn’t grovelling in shame. Hypocrite. Let’s have those quotes of yours again…in fact, let’s have some more: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text ->There are several words for women who need four or more abortions >in a single lifetime — whore, prostitute, tart, harlot, …. >I have some sympathy for the woman who finds herself in circumstances >requiring an abortion. I can even picture two mistakes. But, beyond >that it is simply a question of a woman with extremely loose morals. >At what age did you learn about birth control methods other than >abortion? If you and your husband were so careless as for you to >have 4 unwanted pregnancies before the age of 21, something was >remarkably wrong. >I may not condone unnecessary abortions, but I can certainly under- >stand how mistakes happen. But, after the first couple of mistakes, >it is time to take some action to ensure you don’t just repeat the >same dumb mistake over and over. You apparently just kept on being >stupid. >I am truely wondering how anyone could kill an innocent unborn? >Isn’t taking the very life of another human for convenience the >most selfish act a human could commit? >Why could you not have given the child up? >Are your personal feelings so terribly important as to >justify killing another human being to help you feel better? >Will you someday tell them about their sibling that you killed? If >not, why not? If so, what will you tell them? You know that if you >do tell them, they will never see you the same way again. You will >then be "that lady who could kill her own child." >Did you ever imagine how the child felt when those cold >steel instruments entered the womb and began to slice it? >Did you wonder if the first blade cut off an arm or a leg? >Did the baby silently screem it’s awful terror?
"The power of accurate observation is most commonly called cynicism by those who have not got it." –George Bernard Shaw
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Thu, 30 Jul 1998 21:56:13 -0500, Papa Jack <papa_j…@geocities.com> wrote: >Pandagas wrote: >> In article <35BE423C.5FD85…@geocities.com>, >> Papa Jack <papa_j…@geocities.com> writes: > ===================================================================== >>> Papa Jack wrote: >>> Now some of the Pro-Abortion Righters may attack you for >>> admitting you suffer from PAS. It is a strong point in the >>> PAR comic book that ALL women feel elated and relieved when >>> they have abortions. They shout loudly that there are >>> absolutely no negative side effects from abortion. > ===================================================================== >> Pandagas wrote: >> Are there no negative side affects from being forced to >> remain pregnant? > ===================================================================== >Papa Jack commented: >Force is used only in rapes. In normal pregnancies, the >woman consented to the acts that made her pregnant.
And therefore the woman consents to continuing the pregnancy until birth and a 20-year support interval for the resulting pregnancy, just for consenting to sex? You’re weird, Jack — or maybe I am. Of course, women (and men, for that matter) should realize that one possible consequence of sex is pregnancy. That consequence can in fact be dealt with in a number of ways; abortion is one way. Whether that way is moral or not is another question, more properly directed at a religious group. (Note that the word "abortion" is not mentioned in the Bible, as far as I know.) Whether that way is legal or not is still another. (It is currently legal in the US, so that question at least is answered for this country 
.) Whether that way should remain legal is yet another — and, IMO, is the question we should be arguing in these newsgroups. (Except maybe in alt.support.abortion — but then, I support the right of a woman to have an abortion, if she so wills. ) >The U.S. maternal mortality rate is less than 1 per 10,000 >births. Thus, the negative side effects from pregnancies >are quite a bit less than they were just 30 years ago.
There is a hole in your logic. There are other side effects from pregnancy than death. Stretch marks, to take a relatively mundane (and harmless) one. Pelvic collapse. Eclampsia. Water retention. Sickness. Infection, if the foetus dies for some reason and is not immediately removed. Muscular cutting during the actual birth process (ouch! I’m glad I’m male… ). Of course, it is far from clear that these are even major issues. The reason is simple: do the rights of the foetus supercede the rights of the woman? If so…it doesn’t matter whether there is a risk of death or not! [*] If not, we are in the situation we are now; namely, abortion on demand, at least until a certain point. (Note that equality of rights is not an option, as we are either talking two different people here, and therefore a contest for the same resource (i.e., the woman’s body), or only one, a pregnant woman, and therefore no comparison operator (which requires two operands) can be used.) [rest snipped] [*] If one says "only during such-and-such a condition", then one will of course have to justify why that would in fact be relevant to the rights of the foetus. —- ew…@aimnet.com
Response:
>Force is used only in rapes.
Papjack hasn’t been to any births lately has he……must be ducking the news too…… >In normal pregnancies
So, a pregnancy that results from rape is abnormal? >the >woman consented to the acts that made her pregnant.
Goodness you are good at twisting. A woman consents to sex, pregnancy is one of many possible outcomes of sex, therefore she consented to pregnancy? PapaJack, you REALLY need a course in logic. >The U.S. maternal mortality rate is less than 1 per 10,000 >births
To be exact, the REPORTED rate of maternal mortality is 15 per 200,000. At least according to the NIH. Shall we talk morbidity now? Naw, cause it has no relevence to the discussion does it, because it doesn’t support your contention that pregnancy is 100% safe, or at least safer than abortion. >Thus, the negative side effects from pregnancies >are quite a bit less than they were just 30 years ago.
No, they are exactly the same. The rates of PIH, MT, GD, PE, AP, PPH, etc etc are all the same as they were 30 years ago. Calling maternal morbidity a "side effect" is disengenuous in the extreme. >Well, if that is so, why did the greatest teacher in the >history of mankind teach in parables?
Well now who would that be? From another post we have this: "According to Deja News, I’ve posted 6,418 messages in the last two years. The only times I mention religion or sin is in response to someone else’s comments." Now, Pandagas did NOT mention religion or sin, but you have referred to Jesus. As I am sure everyone can see, you lie:)
Response:
First we have "Lidia": >. but i had an abortion last april, unfor- >> tunatley
If you didn’t seek one, how did this happen? Someone forced you into a clinic against your will? > i wish i didn’t go through with >> the abortion.
Well, you made what was apparently a bad choice for you now didn’t you? >to think i gave someone permission to murder >> my baby,
No, if you view it as murder, you murdered your baby. I don’t happen to feel that way BTW, I’d just like to point out that this was your choice, you were totally responsible for making it, you were totally responsible for going through with it, and you are totally responsible for the outcome. I gotta ask, 3 unplanned, unwanted pregnancies? Why didn’t you seek and use birth control? > i used to be pro- >> choice, i’m pro-life now
Now that you have used the viable choice of abortion, you wish to strip others of the right to do so. Hypocritical position to take my dear. >they are innocent lives who did not >> ask to be born.
The didn’t ask to be conceived, be born, be aborted, be miscarried, or anything else, because guess what? They can’t talk! Now we have the usual drivel from PapaJack whom I strongly suspect is Lidia, but just for shits and giggles, I’ll play his sad game: >Thank you, Lidia, for sharing your painful experiences with >us
Yes, thank you Lidia, for being a hypocritical, irresponsible and self-righteous human being. We do so appreciate YOUR view that you get to make a choice, but take no responsibility for it, and that no one else has the right to make that same choice because you "feel bad"about your decision. >Now some of the Pro-Abortion Righters may attack you for >admitting you suffer from PAS.
Nope:) If she really HAD PAS I’d direct her to help. However, since this woman obviously has some deep disturbing underlying problems-leading to repeated unplanned pregnancies-I strongly suspect that is not the case. In fact, I’d be looking for possible sexual abuse history here. Irresponsible passive sex roles are often assumed by victims of rape, incest, and/or child molestation. >It is a strong point in the >PAR comic book that ALL women feel elated and relieved when >they have abortions.
I didn’t get my copy PapaJack…..where do I get one? No, quite a few women have regrets. The underlying emotion is usually one of relief though. I don’t expect elation ever occurs. >They shout loudly that there are >absolutely no negative side effects from abortion
Oh bullshit and you know it. There are as many "side effects" from abortion as there are from any medical procedure. This is part of the risk benefit analysis abortion providers discuss with patients. >You would tell the truth — and that is unforgivable in the >"sisterhood.
She would tell HER "truth". It doesn’t apply to everyone. Not everyone gets pregnant repeatedly and thinks about abortion everytime, not everyone has an abortion, not everyone regrets abortion, not everyone becomes "pro-life" following an abortion. Nope, it isn’t everyone that refuses to take responsibility for their choice. That Lidia does hardly makes her a pro-life role model now does it? Or are you all accepting "murderers that regret murdering" these days? The new tactic of the PIGs, "have an abortion, claim it was terrible, deny you had a choice or any responsibility for the situation, become pro-life"…. is that it PapaJack/Lidia?
Response:
Pandagas wrote: > In article <35BE423C.5FD85…@geocities.com>, > Papa Jack <papa_j…@geocities.com> writes:
===================================================================== >> Papa Jack wrote: >> Now some of the Pro-Abortion Righters may attack you for >> admitting you suffer from PAS. It is a strong point in the >> PAR comic book that ALL women feel elated and relieved when >> they have abortions. They shout loudly that there are >> absolutely no negative side effects from abortion.
===================================================================== > Pandagas wrote: > Are there no negative side affects from being forced to > remain pregnant?
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: Force is used only in rapes. In normal pregnancies, the woman consented to the acts that made her pregnant. The U.S. maternal mortality rate is less than 1 per 10,000 births. Thus, the negative side effects from pregnancies are quite a bit less than they were just 30 years ago. ===================================================================== > Pandagas wrote: > By the way PJ, you are clever enough to know that individual > experiences don’t make good public debate.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: Well, if that is so, why did the greatest teacher in the history of mankind teach in parables? Enjoy a grand weekend. — { Papa Jack { { http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7346/ "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." –Thomas Jefferson
Response:
lidia mandry wrote:
===================================================================== – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> lidia mandry wrote: > hi everyone i’m new here. i just want to say that when i > was 17 i became pregnant everyone including my family told > me to get an abortion. i kept my baby and she is 2yo a few > years later i gave birth to my baby boy.i went to an abor- > tion clinic to get an abortion, i walked out. they are both > the joy in my life. but i had an abortion last april, unfor- > tunatley. i suffer from pas. i regret i did this. my husband > is very helpful i know see a therapist. i guess what i > really want to say is that i wish i didn’t go through with > the abortion. to think i gave someone permission to murder > my baby, this makes me very depressed. i used to be pro- > choice, i’m pro-life now. fetuses are lives they have > beating hearts, they suck their thumbs, they have nerves > so they can feel pain. they are innocent lives who did not > ask to be born. i can’t say anymore i’m crying
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: Thank you, Lidia, for sharing your painful experiences with us. Now some of the Pro-Abortion Righters may attack you for admitting you suffer from PAS. It is a strong point in the PAR comic book that ALL women feel elated and relieved when they have abortions. They shout loudly that there are absolutely no negative side effects from abortion. In fact, if you really believed all the propaganda they put out, you would think that abortions were glorious experiences that improve the health of American women. You would tell the truth — and that is unforgivable in the "sisterhood." Enjoy a grand week. — { Papa Jack { { http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7346/ "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." –Thomas Jefferson
Response:
Jim Rogers wrote: > Papa Jack wrote: >> lidia mandry wrote:
===================================================================== >>> lidia mandry wrote: >>> … but i had an abortion last april, unfortunatley. i >>>suffer from pas. i regret i did this. my husband >>> is very helpful i know see a therapist. … > [etc]
===================================================================== >> Papa Jack commented: >> Thank you, Lidia, for sharing your painful experiences with >> us. >> Now some of the Pro-Abortion Righters may attack you for >> admitting you suffer from PAS.
===================================================================== > Jim Rogers wrote: > Why would you suggest such a mean-spirited thing, PJ?
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: Because I’ve observed PARs react in very mean-spirited ways to newbies before. I’ve also observed the grotesque efforts of the entire liberal establishment to attack and discredit any scientist who has the audacity to do research on any medical issues related to abortion. They believe they should in fact control all such research — so when absolutely necessary it can be performed by their trained seals at AGI. ===================================================================== > Jim Rogers wrote: > …It is possible that her testimonial is untrustworthy, as > many people "troll" these waters for reaction.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: I have no idea whether or not lidia is or is not a troll. However, I have no idea whether or not Jim Rogers is a troll. I will assume she is genuine until I have reason to believe otherwise — just as I did with Dr. Sneazer. ===================================================================== > Jim Rogers wrote: > …If honest, however, then there’s no call whatever to "attack" > someone harboring regrets and feeling depressed about it, and I > don’t see anyone doing so.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: I totally agree with you that there is never any call to "attack someone harboring regrets and feeling depressed about it." However, Jim, this is an imperfect world. I have read dozens of heated denials by PARs that any such syndrome exists. One of the favorite explanations are like the one recently given by Webgiant: …the studies performed on women who have had abortions show that the "lingering emotional problems" occur invariably in the women who were clinically depressed PRIOR TO the abortion. The women who were not clinically depressed were not depressed after the abortion, and continued not to be depressed during follow-up studies. So the evidence for PAS is very slim and largely anecdotal, while the actual studies show that PAS is probably Pre-Abortion Clinical Depression. Talk about mean spirited!! This explanation attempts to intimi- date women who have had abortions — "If you say you feel depres- sed AFTER the abortion, we will tell the world what a totally neurotic bitch your really are!" Go to: http://www.prolife.org/afterabortion/koop.html and read about the tremendous pressures brought on Surgeon General Koop to find that PAS doesn’t exist — to the point where he ducked instructions from President Reagan. However, when one cites David C. Reardon, Ph.D., or the Elliot Institute, the PARs screech in derision because he finds different results than their AGI trained seals. Or, you might read Joel Brind’s description of the frantic efforts of various government officials to discredit his study on the correlation between breast cancer and abortion. Go to: http://www.firstthings.com/ftissues/ft9705/brind.html Then, to see what he is talking about, go to the New England Journal of Medicine and read the editorial by Patricia Hartge, Sc.D. National Cancer Institute: http://www.nejm.org/content/1997/0336/0002/0127.asp If you’re not a wee bit paranoid after reading these articles then you’re not paying attention. #8^) ===================================================================== >> Papa Jack wrote: >> …It is a strong point in the >> PAR comic book that ALL women feel elated and relieved when >> they have abortions. They shout loudly that there are >> absolutely no negative side effects from abortion. In fact, >> if you really believed all the propaganda they put out, you >> would think that abortions were glorious
===================================================================== > Jim Rogers wrote: > Presuming that you believe her story, I’m repulsed that you > would exploit it in the cause of politics, but that behavior > doesn’t surprise me any more.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: The lady posted her story on a public forum. I thanked her for having the courage to share it with us — and then I warned her to expect the exact sort of snide and rude comments that were promptly posted by Vasile Aciobanitei. This is an old story, Jim. We’ve had Pro-Life newbies repeatedly attacked for the entire two years that I’ve been posting. Par- ticularly those who told "their story." ===================================================================== > Jim Rogers wrote: > My response to "lidia" would be to contemplate the gestational > age at which she had her abortion. If like most women who have > abortions, which I’m guessing in her case was for reasons some- > thing along the lines of "two are enough," then it was during > the first trimester or early in the second. She should under- > stand the medical realities of an embryo or fetus at such a > point of development: there is no "brain" as we know it, cer- > tainly no cortex, and no mechanism to feel pain. She can ask > her obstetrician for confirmation; this is a fact which might > bring her some degree of comfort, which is all that I would > wish upon her.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: BWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA. First you try to chastise me for being "political" — then, you immediately post shameless PAR propaganda. It’s a two-way street, Jim. You are trying to convert Lidia to the PAR side with the old tired and worn "it’s not really a ‘PERSON’" routine. That’s the same crap that the Nazis and Sorthern slave owners tried to sell people. ===================================================================== >> Papa Jack wrote: >> …You would tell the truth — and that is unforgivable >> in the "sisterhood."
===================================================================== > Jim Rogers wrote: > Her tale is not everyone’s tale.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: No, it isn’t. But then, neither she nor I claimed it was. Enjoy a grand week. — { Papa Jack { { http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7346/ "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." –Thomas Jefferson
Response:
Pandagas wrote: > In article <6piub8$…@bgtnsc03.worldnet.att.net>, > "lidia mandry" <wueismanlu…@worldnet.att.net> writes:
===================================================================== >> lidia mandry >> …they are innocent lives who did not ask to be born. i can’t >> say anymore i’m crying
===================================================================== > Pandagas wrote: > Maybe you are straight up, but you may wish to know that > people find postings of individual experiences very suspicious.
===================================================================== Papa Jack commented: Why? What did Lidia write that you found suspicious? Her story is one which could be considered typical of thousands of young American women in these days of "sexual liberation." The PAR’s continued harsh insistence that there is no such thing as Post Abortion Syndrome (PAS) would push aside the cases like Lidia’s. IMO, that clearly shows the PAR position is much more interested in the politics of the abortion issues, than the best interests of the women who have abortions. Enjoy a great week. — { Papa Jack { { http://www.geocities.com/CapitolHill/Lobby/7346/ "We hold these truths to be self evident, that all men are created equal; that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights; that among these, are life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." –Thomas Jefferson
