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Well not all the details 
That’s what I get for taking a Concerta. I should be getting some paperwork done for my job. Now THAT is avoidance! As far as details and b.c. I have learned that the dr’s don’t have all the answers. I have also learned that those who do have more info are not allowed to do what they think is best because those efforts may not be approved by the currently functioning system that is in place. My thoughts on such were verified by the comments made to me about the different treatment I would receive if I should go on a clinical trial–more careful monitoring and intervention. That would not have been necessarily for my benefit (although in reality it could be so), but for the good of the trial, itself. When will people be thought of as more important than archaic systems??? Okay, I will stop philosophizing or is that philosophosizing…sorry, I was raised by a father who taught me not to accept everything I learned at face value but to think for myself and question. No, I am not one of those ‘obnoxious’ (sorry for the value judgment) persons who questions someone to show them up or try and prove them wrong–I do so in my mind after digesting the information I have been given. Unfortunately, because of my training–the inconsistencies often smack me in the face. I know it sounds as if I am going off on another tangent again–so for anyone bored–please delete or don’t read–but really I do hope that in someway what I am doing will help increae my survival and hopefully be of benefit to some others as well.
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Well, one of the members was a male. He ticked me off ! I was ticked for them allowing him in the session. All he wanted to talk about was that he was a teacher in secondary high school and was physically attracted to female students. I wanted to rip his eyes out and beat him up. I wanted to yell at him. I wanted him to quit his job. I wanted somebody in the group to tell the police. I wanted him fired. I wanted him put in jail – so the kids would be safe from him.
I feel the need to put the male point of view. I do understand your feelings of outrage on peeking inside a man’s mind, but it is perfectly normal for male primates to feel physical attraction for sexually mature females. Sometimes it works the other way too. You cannot put someone in jail for feeling attraction, or for confiding those feelings in a support group. It is a duty of people employed in positions of responsibility to control such feelings, not to deny having them. It is only a professional misconduct if he lets the attraction control him, and puts it into practice. It is only a crime or danger to children if furthermore his target is below legal age and/or he forces his attentions on an unwilling victim. In this country an 18 year old girl could be attending high school by day and legally getting pie-eyed on the dance floor of night clubs by night. We would condone her courting a man in his late twenties in the latter situation, how could we then condemn him for admitting that he is attracted to her by day. Attraction to sexually -immature- females is something else entirely, I am not defending that, but this problem usually arises with girls in their final years, who are legally old enough to consent to marriage. If we imprisoned all men who are attracted to women, the race would not last long, although women might enjoy running the place for a while. In support groups we are there to give as well as take support. On this occasion you may not have been able to get the group to support you, but you might have found an opportunity to help someone else who was struggling with an internal conflict. Tim Jackson
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Well, one of the members was a male. He ticked me off ! I was ticked forthem allowing him in the session. All he wanted to talk about was that he was a teacher in secondary highschool and was physically attracted to female students. I wanted to rip his eyes outand beat him up. I wanted to yell at him. I wanted him to quit his job. I wanted somebody in the group to tell the police. I wanted him fired. Iwanted him put in jail – so the kids would be safe from him. I feel the need to put the male point of view.
Sorry Tim, I wasn’t clear enough. He’d lived with these thoughts all his life – that’s normal. <I agree He was married. He’d been booted out of one school for <unexplained and was currently working at a new school. He was talking about 13, 14, and 15 year olds and the reason he was integrated into the group is because his counsellor (social worker) had "run out of ideas" and each time it was his turn to speak, he either elaborated on the physical reactions to watching females (school girls) with tight clothing, low cut tops, or shorts while on the job and how he had difficulty doing his job (concentrating). AND (as the meetings progressed) he expressed that he had plans to execute his thoughts with them. That’s abuse of power IMO, if he did act on his thoughts. It had become an obsession which ruled his life. He was in the wrong support group IMO The rest were there to talk about general relationship problems or day to day depressive/stress issues. He needed professional help. J
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it was hard enough wearing a wig or hat. I don’t like my head nor face covered That was the hardest part about the thought of losing my hair, but the wig didn’t turn out to be so bad. It was kind of fun. The best part was no more bad hair days! That analogy won’t work for the mask–I am not going to start putting one on. At the same time I am not going to reveal my inner soul to every Tom, Dick, and Harry I meet. What is important is that I have come to understand my inner soul and have a choice whether or not to share it, and have close family and friends in my life to whom I can share it if I choose. In that sense I am very fortunate.
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know or want to know about their disease. As a group they let their doctors think for them — I am amazed when I find that but think that is or at least ‘was’ the majority. Those kinds of patients do make the drs’ and nurses’ jobs alot easier. Then again, I am finding alot of dr’s act in a similar manner. They base their decisions on reports from other dr’s whether or not that information is accurate or consistent with what is going on at the time or moment it was done. It sure makes life a lot easier. That is cookbook medicine at its finest or ‘managed care.’ If one attempts to go outside the box, it arouses suspect and puts those inside on the defense. It must be done carefully and tactfully. If one tries to bulldoze their way through it often results in their sabotaging the good of what could be received and may result in a worse outcome had they gone along with the ’system.’ It also has the potential to alienate those who are following the system–either it creates dissonance by arousing their insecurities and they don’t want to deal with it–so turn off or avoid it–or it makes them feel ’superior’ because they are the ‘good’ ones and receive what they feel is the ‘best’ treatments of the system (whether or not correct, but they haven’t taken the effort to find out), or they avoid or tune out because they don’t want to hear it or deal with the possibility that something is ‘wrong’ with the system. I am not sure how I got so ‘lucky’ to have so many things happen that are out-of-sync with the existing system. I almost feel that I have been given a challenge–to do something to help correct it–albeit in a ‘positive’ manner. That’s what I get for saving our rabbi–behind the scenes. I had forgotten about that one. I won’t go into the details but what was being done to him by a greedy, self-centered executive director and former director of education was against my religion. The latter inappropriately reprimanded a teacher in front of students and called that teacher inappropriate names. The outcome–the director’s temporary contract was not renewed and one of the best teachers who also had an administrative credential became the new director–where she has done more than a satisfactory job for the past 8 or 9 years. The rabbi completed his term until retirement, retired to be rabbi emeritus and a new fabulous rabbi came on board at the appropriate time. It became a win-win situation–except for the ‘bullies’ who tried to arouse and create animosity and division of loyalties. I was sort of thrust into a position behind the scenes (where I wanted to be) by those who came to me for advice. What I did was network and seek out the assistance of loyal supporters who were flabbergasted to learn what was going on. We mobilized together into a positive, cohesive unit that was able to effectively withstand this horrific unwanted invasion. Why am I writing about this here? I think that my subconscious is trying to tell me something about my cancer, the treatment I am getting, and what to do about it. I am not sure where to turn next for support–but the night before last it all ‘hit’ me. I didn’t pick up on the private radiologists eval. of MRI and rec’s for PET scan–which were rejected by HMO but we did on own–but what she had said just ‘hit’ me when I re-evaluated the reports. I will have to share further. But, basically, the CT scan reports are confusing. They were imaged at different settings which makes comparison difficulty. The dr.–one radiologist was making recommendations that seemed as if he were trying to cover himself for something not done in the past. But, even more problematic is that the information is conflicting, and I just saw it. The private rad. had alluded to it but I/we didn’t pick up on it at the time. I had been too focused or more concerned about the other that was going on at the time.
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That may be true for some. I don’t have time for masks. I don’t need to pretend. I am who I am–take it or leave it but that doesn’t mean I am without tact, compassion, understanding, and concern for others. Cancer has made me a bit more self-centered–but that is because I am trying to survive. Besides it was hard enough wearing a wig or hat. I don’t like my head nor face covered
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FWIW, I had a very similar experience with alleged "support groups" Kaye. Mine was run by a local hospital, they even served lunch (heavy on unhealthy sweets, and carbos, etc.) The women in the group I went to were nice people who didn’t know or want to know about their disease. As a group they let their doctors think for them — which I couldn’t do. I had to think for myself, and like you, that meant making INFORMED decisions. Got no information, hence wasting my time, too. I understand where you were coming from. Adrienne Lady8
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wishing I’d stayed and "had my say". I understand your frustration about not taking action in this situation. I see the difference in ‘realities’ here. I suppose in my situation I could have made the group ‘fit’ but I felt my time (back then–soon after diagnosis)–would be better spent in learning about b.c. AT the time of my dx I was ignorant. All I knew about b.c. was that either one had it or didn’t. I had no clue about the implications of positive nodes. I didn’t know what metastasis meant and couldn’t even remember how to pronounce it. I couldn’t understand the info I was reading. Yet, I was being asked to make decisions based on minimal information with minimal comprehension. Is that an informed decision? I threw myself into learning as much as I could about b.c. I had never even taken a chem class (my loss but bad chem teacher at our high school–and when my friends were in college they were studying it 24/7. I wanted to learn about ‘real life’ then of which studying wasn’t necessarily a part of). So, what I learned from that group was that I was at a very difference place than the majority who were being dx’d with bc. I wanted to spend my time learning about bc not talking about other peoples bc that had a much better prognosis than I had. I think I succeeded in that goal–it has allowed me to work together with my oncologists-and they agree with what I am doing. I am not even sure I would still be here now if I hadn’t. I am not sure if what I have done is still working, or how long this will continue to work if it still is–but at least I have a basic understanding of cancer is and can now make as informed a decision as possible which I couldn’t do before.
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Adrienne, thanks so much for your support–much appreciated. Still, though, I think J wanted to draw me into debate about some issues and get me to think about some other areas. Again, though I did take issue with the depression/anger issue based on my own knowledge and experience. Repressed anger can lead to depression/not the other way around. And as far as that one support group meeting experience–that was a learning experience for me but not in the way it was intended. It made me realize how much further advanced my b.c. was than what is now the norm for what is usually discovered these days within that community (our non-profit HMO). I did go back to at least one other meeting–and basically got nothing from it. It was not very well run. All it involved was going around with each person telling about their own experience with b.c. One thing that I had been concerned with was the lack of discussion of what should have been basic rules of confidentiality. That wasn’t even mentioned. I have run counseling groups–for students and parents–and found the one I attended not up to standards I expected. I wasn’t going to place myself in that situation again nor did I want to ‘take over’ the group which was being led by a trained ‘professional.’ I had no interest in it and found it not only an unexpectedly negative experience but a waste of my time. I would rather write about my feelings on line and provide written support and helpful info to others. Besides, for the one hour meeting, 1/2 hour drive the alone, time to park, time to get ready for it (with not enough of a long enough block of time to get into anything major–took up almost half a day. That is not how I want to be spending my time.
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12:35 well I didn’t get what I needed done. Instead of doing what I shouldda’ I started reading–biography of Bill Clinton–and promptly fell asleep. It’s not the book per se but what happens these days as I try and read print. Of course doing it in bed didn’t help. I woke to find 8 kids in the kitchen having a late breakfast. It was a really neat filling–hard to explain–but since my youngest went off to college I sure miss having kids around. As I said these kids have been wonderful and assume that some of them will be big name stars on ‘Broadway’ in the future. Several of them are on scholarships for musical theater at varying universities. I hope my daughters hopes and dreams materialize in this was as well. She, too, is on scholarship but chose a university that didn’t have musical theater alone–and also is double majoring–international relations and hopes to go into politics…future president she once thought but am thinking it is more like ambassador of someplace, somewhere… Again what does this have to do with b.c. Not much excepts that it frees my mind from the prison that I often find myself in. The feelings I get from this give me a renewed sense of hope. Hmmm…perhaps the despair and sadness that unexpectedly confronted me when the first feelings of emptiness were stirred did something to my body chemistry that laid way for the cell changes to take place that allowed the b.c. to set in. That does sound a bit far fetched. However, I experienced ‘empty nest’ big time back in ‘96, about almost 5 years before the b.c. was dx’d. That was when my eldest graduated high school, our middle daughter graduated jr. high, and our youngest graduated elementary–first time in 13 years I wouldn’t have a child in elementary school and our eldest would be leaving to go away for college. I was excited but at the same time very saddened about the upcoming change that would take place within our family structure. I would cry, literally, over nothing–it was strange. I never thought I would take it like that. Friends whose kids were younger experienced something like that when their kids graduated, too. Perhaps this is a mom thing that happens naturally? When our middle daughter went off to school, there was a session for parents on this very subject. A prof from her university wrote a book on it. I have read that women who experience a sense of profound loss may have onset of illness about 5 or so years later. I have no idea if this could have been a precipitating event–or one of several–or just a coincidence… Anyway, its great when they–either one, all, or some are here alone and/or with their friends. I felt this way last winter, too, when all were home together, and when two of their boyfriends were here, too. I also felt this way when our foreign exchange student from 2 years ago visited with her family. Maybe we should look at having more exchange kids to stay with us…hmmm…would do that if I worked locally…but…hmmm…
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Have you thought about seeing a counselor or looking into anti-depressants? You have been so wrapped up in your fight with b.c. that maybe you have lost sight of how to let go of the stress? Being a warrior can be exhausting. Wishing I could send you relaxing thoughts so that you can find peace. You do sound awfully stressed these days. Sending warm, happy, loving thoughts, Catherine W.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – 12:35 well I didn’t get what I needed done. Instead of doing what I shouldda’ I started reading–biography of Bill Clinton–and promptly fell asleep. It’s not the book per se but what happens these days as I try and read print. Of course doing it in bed didn’t help. I woke to find 8 kids in the kitchen having a late breakfast. It was a really neat filling–hard to explain–but since my youngest went off to college I sure miss having kids around. As I said these kids have been wonderful and assume that some of them will be big name stars on ‘Broadway’ in the future. Several of them are on scholarships for musical theater at varying universities. I hope my daughters hopes and dreams materialize in this was as well. She, too, is on scholarship but chose a university that didn’t have musical theater alone–and also is double majoring–international relations and hopes to go into politics…future president she once thought but am thinking it is more like ambassador of someplace, somewhere… Again what does this have to do with b.c. Not much excepts that it frees my mind from the prison that I often find myself in. The feelings I get from this give me a renewed sense of hope. Hmmm…perhaps the despair and sadness that unexpectedly confronted me when the first feelings of emptiness were stirred did something to my body chemistry that laid way for the cell changes to take place that allowed the b.c. to set in. That does sound a bit far fetched. However, I experienced ‘empty nest’ big time back in ‘96, about almost 5 years before the b.c. was dx’d. That was when my eldest graduated high school, our middle daughter graduated jr. high, and our youngest graduated elementary–first time in 13 years I wouldn’t have a child in elementary school and our eldest would be leaving to go away for college. I was excited but at the same time very saddened about the upcoming change that would take place within our family structure. I would cry, literally, over nothing–it was strange. I never thought I would take it like that. Friends whose kids were younger experienced something like that when their kids graduated, too. Perhaps this is a mom thing that happens naturally? When our middle daughter went off to school, there was a session for parents on this very subject. A prof from her university wrote a book on it. I have read that women who experience a sense of profound loss may have onset of illness about 5 or so years later. I have no idea if this could have been a precipitating event–or one of several–or just a coincidence… Anyway, its great when they–either one, all, or some are here alone and/or with their friends. I felt this way last winter, too, when all were home together, and when two of their boyfriends were here, too. I also felt this way when our foreign exchange student from 2 years ago visited with her family. Maybe we should look at having more exchange kids to stay with us…hmmm…would do that if I worked locally…but…hmmm…
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Anyway, its great when they–either one, all, or some are here
alone and/or with their friends. I felt this way last winter, too, when all were home together, and when two of their boyfriends were here, too. I also felt this way when our foreign exchange student from 2 years ago visited with her family. Maybe we should look at having more exchange kids to stay with us…hmmm…would do that if I worked locally…but…hmmm…<<< I can relate, Kaye…as I always feel better when surrounded by our small family (dear husband, 2 daughters, on son-in-law and one precious precious grandson…I, too, tend to dwell on negative things (not just health issues but anything that makes me anxious or sad) when they’re not around and have to work very very hard every single day to keep my mind occupied with something more positive…on a good day, I am successful and on a bad day, well, you know the scenario…and I haven’t had a diagnosis of bc (but too many to count in my immediate family have, including my mother and sister, a maternal aunt…and on and on… What I find works best for me, if I can catch the negative thoughts in time…and that’s a big IF…is to do something/anything that occupies my mind…for example, I tutor ESL on a regular basis…I am always in a better frame of mind when I have many students…since spring, I’ve decided to read all the literary classics I’ve alwasys been planning to but never quite made time for…I’m not an athletic person at all and at the moment am laid up with a stress fracture in my foot so it is essential for me to keep my mind busy… I’m not sure where I’m going with this, but did want to say that I think the idea of your having more exchange kids is a great one and would encourage you to do so even if not working locally will make it harder for you to do so… I hope I’m not being too intrusive to ask whether you had morbid thoughts before your diagnosis…I guess not but perhaps I’m wrong…I think about my own mortality often even tho I’ve had no bc diagnosis…I had a terrible time embracing my 60th birthday last March and still have not totally accepted it…strange because age has never bothered me in the past…I know it’s totally irrational but I think about it all the time…I was brought up short when a very pragmatic friend of mine reminded me that "we all have to die of something" lol…still hasn’t stopped the morbid thoughts, though…anyway, enough for now…Take good care…Catherine
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Anger can come from depression, depression can come from anger.. So what do you do? You do physical things instead of "letting it all out". Not really denial–just treat the things that ‘pop’ into my mind as interesting phemonena. I do wonder if there is some specific mechanism that triggers them as we reach different stages in our life–including one that might be triggered if one, in fact, does have metastatic disease or even cancer itself. As far as anger and depression–it’s the other way around. Depression is often the result of repressed anger. Believe me my anger isn’t being repressed. << I’ve snipped it all, but you wimped out. Admit it, Kaye. Go back to the group and tell them what you’ve learned about yourself. Not at all—fully disagree. This particular group was so not for me—totally mismatched. The majority had stage I or early stage II b.c.’s. Since I went to that group my onc re-classified it as stage III — very advanced stage III if not stage IV. What I learned wasn’t about "myself" it was about my stage of cancer and where I fit in or didn’t fit in with the others. I should have been in a more advanced group. Being with those women brought me closer to the reality I was dealing with but that was being dissed by the professionals–or at least some of them. My gut level feelings were solidified as my reality in regards to cancer was so different from theirs. It would have been most helpful to be with a group of b.c.’ers whose cancer was stage III or even stage IV. My 2nd opinion onc also confirmed our thoughts re. my case. My first experience in ‘group’ therapy was something offered for all freshman in our dorm back in the late ’60’s. I then had several professional classes in counseling and group counseling. Um, to sayan an individual-centered purpose. Somewhere where I can do something to make a difference. Let’s just say I am not going to sit back and take this ‘crap’ and be allowed to have my experiences dissed or minimized. I know "too much" of what I wish I never had to know. It isn’t easy. When one of the consulting radiologists we saw who took a look at my CT scans for a second opinion told us–that we–my husband and I– knew more than 90% of the experts in regard to my type of b.c. This was rad. onc. who wrote research findings on different patterns of metastatic lobular–that it continues to metastasize as lobular does in the breast–not in tumor form–but in sheets. Eventually, it may take the form of a tumor but often doesn’t. It shows up in scans as "thickenings." My scan reports are full of what has been seen as "thickenings" in various areas but none of the radiologists interpreting them has linked them to the type of b.c. that I have. In fact they aren’t even being told what type of b.c. I have. When I mentioned that fact to the specialist–the univ. professor rad. onc. he threw his hands up into the air. He has the same problem. He said he has begged the oncologists to tell him what type of b.c. the patients have but even he, the specialist in this area, has not been successful in getting the oncs to do that. If that is the state of ‘art’ in the treatment re. b.c. it is barbaric. They are so behind the times in terms of linking current research with current practice. Hey, this doesn’t only happen in the field of medicine. It happens in education too–where it took almost 25 years to bring what was being learned in research into just beginning introduction–and even 30 years later that research has not become the standard in use. So when a research professor tells us that we know more than 90% of the experts THAT doesn’t make one feel overly secure. There is something VERY WRONG about a system where that can happen. << I’m betting you either keep it all inside or only talk to "safe" persons. People who won’t disagree with you. I hope I discuss things appropriately with the appropriate persons. I am certainly not keeping it all in here. Having an outlet here to write about it helps me maintain my sanity and perspective. My wonderful husband gets quite a bit too as do some close friends. At the same time I wouldn’t want to overwhelm anyone. Then there are the so-called ‘experts’ or 2nd opinions–they get only what time they have in their appt. slot allotted for me/us. However, the one who offered to work together with us as a team sort of ‘flaked out.’ I wonder if that might be because we weren’t rolling in the money he assumed we had or if he got in over his head. We are still in touch but I am still waiting for him to come through with some of his initial offer(s). I might be a little harsh here because I do believe some personal and family health issues intervened at the ‘wrong’ times. J, I am very aware of my feelings. It’s just these odd snippets that pop into my conscious seemingly out of nowhere. I have since read a few books/articles and do try to separate myself from them–i.e. people who are dying often talk about taking a trip. When I read that I had that ‘aha’ feeling and then thought ‘yikes.’ One thing I likened my b.c experience to was jumping on a running train and feeling as if I were holding on for dear life. Like I had just "made it" but that it wasn’t going to necessarily be an easy journey nor would it necessarily end up where I wanted to be going. I thought that association was based on my past vagabonding experiences as a student–when I actually did jump on a running train as it was pulling out of Amsterdam for Paris. That day turned out to be both the worst and then best day of my entire 11 month week of backpacking alone throughout Europe at the age of 22. Technically, I was never ‘alone’–met so many people and had my pick of whom to travel with–and did so when I wanted…having some very ‘interesting’ experiences and learned not to do some things alone after I almost perished on the slopes of Mt. Blanc after being enveloped in a fog and subsequent torrential rain–after I decided to separate from the group–to picnic on cheese, bread, and chocolate and write postcards and in my diary after the weather had cleared. Big mistake. Fortunately, I had seen where I had to hike down to and made myself keep on–even after losing the path. I was a bit uneasy–so made myself sing–and that was enough I am sure for someone to want me out of that environment I had many other wonderful adventures on that trip…
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J: While I find your research skills excellent and often quite helpful, I’m appalled at your comments to Kaye. Until you’ve actually gone through the cancer experience yourself (not as a bystander), you’ve no right to judge. And even THEN you have no right to judge another human being. To equate your (understandably sickened) impressions from a depression group to a breast cancer survivor meeting, or the benefits one can (or cannot) receive from same, is ludicrous. There’s NO comparison. IMO, Kaye didn’t "wimp out" — she found the group unsuitable for her needs. Big difference. Does it MATTER how she did or didn’t see herself? What mattered was, she was trying to follow guidelines that said a survivor’s group might help her — and it didn’t. So she WISELY got out. HER decision. She discovered that wasn’t an answer for HER. — Nothing wrong with that! And yeah, finding those who agree with us IS ’safe’ and comforting and feeling supported — at a time when everything we’ve known as ’safe’ or supportive has disappeared and we’re floundering around in a psychological and medical abyss, trying to find order, stability, and a sense of self again. — What the hell is wrong with seeking a sense of safety? (Trust me, finding that sense of safety definitely qualifies as a ‘learning experience’. ) A cancer dx is terrifying; the learning curve is both treacherous and steep. How it’s handled is an individual thing. — We each have our own capacity to "learn" and we have to do it in our own time. You obviously have no comprehension of the fear; so please don’t claim you ‘know’ — You can’t possibly know until you’ve walked the path. You can only "imagine". Kaye is right where she needs to be for HER journey. And believe me, it IS a learning experience of MAJOR magnitude. To discover what has real meaning can change one’s life. She appears to be going through that now. And while poignant and apprently not to your liking, it represents HER learning curve. I suggest you respect her process as much as you respect your own. I’m sure she’ll find some way to turn your comments around into something more "positive", because that’s "Kaye" — but from here you sound smug, judgmental, and obviously, without a clue. What a shame your own learning experience didn’t help you See better. Adrienne
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Despite all that I have gone through I haven’t gotten depressed yet. Angry–YES/Depressed–NO!
Anger is an energy.. J
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Despite all that I have gone through I haven’t gotten depressed yet. Angry–YES/Depressed–NO!
Denial… Anger can come from depression, depression can come from anger.. So what do you do? You do physical things instead of "letting it all out". I’ve snipped it all, but you wimped out. Admit it, Kaye. Go back to the group and tell them what you’ve learned about yourself. That whole post was full of excuses, "I’m different", "I don’t belong here". Self-sabotage. You are different, each is different, but human emotions (except for the few who cannot feel them) are commonalities to all, including those "in the field". I’m betting you either keep it all inside or only talk to "safe" persons. People who won’t disagree with you. Family, friends who don’t want to hurt a "cancer survivor". Well, I got news for you. Lots of people do that. It’s safe. It’s not a learning experience though. Let’s argue ….<smile
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hi Catherine, I appreciate your concern. Despite all that I have gone through I haven’t gotten depressed yet. Angry–YES/Depressed–NO! As far as counseling I have had some wonderful resources to share some of what has been going on. I did try a support group early on and oh, I take the above back–THAT made me depressed–and I talked to someone about that. The group was not run that well.
I thought the same thing in a group I was in. I regret now that I missed an opportunity. Here’s the story, it was years ago, and it was supposed to be for persons with "chronic low grade depression" (or whatever they call that). Well, one of the members was a male. He ticked me off ! I was ticked for them allowing him in the session. All he wanted to talk about was that he was a teacher in secondary high school and was physically attracted to female students. I wanted to rip his eyes out and beat him up. I wanted to yell at him. I wanted him to quit his job. I wanted somebody in the group to tell the police. I wanted him fired. I wanted him put in jail – so the kids would be safe from him. Everybody was being "safe" and "understanding". I’m betting many were feeling the same as me. I wimped out and quit the group. Now (reading your post) I’m wishing I’d stayed and "had my say". Maybe I’d had gotten yelled at, or spurned, whatever. It didn’t help me to keep the feelings in. I’m still angry about it (otherwise, if I’d said my "piece", it still woulnd’t be on my mind today). So I shot myself in the foot..(by leaving the group) J
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morbid thoughts before your diagnosis…I guess not but perhaps I’m wrong.. Not at all–do welcome the feedback and not at all about being intrusive and not at all about ‘morbid’ thoughts–that is why they are taking me by surprise–so unexpected and out-of-character. However, they were triggered by a series of tragedies–we had several close family and friends die within a short period of time about 8 months after my diagnosis–which was hardest on our youngest–since she had to deal with 10 deaths in a relatively short time–with 5 of those being school friends–all from different causes–4 in 3 separate car accidents, once accidental overdose–of mixing alcohol and Tylenol, and once cancer–plus an elderly uncle, and two very close family friends close to my age–one a massive coronary while mountain biking and the other lost her battle to ovarian cancer. Except for one of the car accidents–8 other occurred within a two-month period. Normally, however, I do try to look at it all from an existential perspective. The first ‘morbid’ thought hit me during the time between a cousin’s 21 year old son died from accidental Tylenol alcohol mix–the thought of what I should wear to be buried in popped into my mind. I told myself not to even go there but did find the idea that it occurred to me—of unwanted, but ‘interest’–not in what I would wear but in the fact that this thought came from ‘nowhere.’ Perhaps they are occurring to me because I am in a state of denial. I write about it here. I don’t discuss it and try not to allow myself to think it. I have always been known, pretty much, for having a more positive outlook–at least in most circles. You know if ‘life gives you lemons, make lemonade.’
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I have always been known, pretty much, for having a more positive outlook–at least in most circles.
That’s a "mask" we put on for the world. J
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hi Catherine, I appreciate your concern. Despite all that I have gone through I haven’t gotten depressed yet. Angry–YES/Depressed–NO! As far as counseling I have had some wonderful resources to share some of what has been going on. I did try a support group early on and oh, I take the above back–THAT made me depressed–and I talked to someone about that. The group was not run that well. Basically each person shared what was going on with them. I was the 3rd to go (my first time there), so I briefly summarized what was going on with me like the two others had. Several people later we got to another newbie. The rest of the meeting dealt with her story. I later found out that the meeting is supposed to focus on the newbies but that had not been mentioned. Now, there is nothing wrong with that–but the other newbie was devastate by her b.c. diagnosis and quite afraid. She had an excisional biopsy which removed the entire tumor–which was said to be at stage "0" Yep–stage zero. She then broke down, hysterically crying. My heart goes out to anyone who has been given a cancer dx. However, it was hard for me to relate–with all that I had going on. I just wanted to run from there–but was polite and didn’t. Then, after listening to everyone else’s stories–there were at least 12 if not 14 or 15–reality sit in. I was by far the most extreme and had the highest of almost all other risks compared to the others. When I left the session I felt probably just about the worse I had at any time since my diagnosis. I am not at all against counseling. I am involved in a related field myself. I do take out alot of my wistful thoughts and fears online–seeking no feedback in particular but always welcome most all that I do receive and try to digest it from differing perspectives. Ah–life would be so booorrring if we were all the same
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God bless you Kaye. Lady8
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Hi Kaye, I know exactly how you are feeling. Since my recurrence I feel like that every day at the moment. I hope it gets better! for both of us., and for all the other people out there in similar situations. I am so up and down at the moment. Everyone says how wonderful I am doing and what an inspiration I am, but inside I am a mess. I do not see the oncologist until next week, the 13th and I know there will not be any answers then. I will have to wait for all the scans and tests to see if there is any spread. Had a great weekend with my grandchildren, Ben, 4 and Emily 11 months. My daughter and son-in-law went to a wedding and we babysat. Hope there are going to be many many more like that. My thoughts and prayers and a big hug go out to you, Liz.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Long for anyone who isn’t interested in this…Today was a busy day. I spent the later morning to early afternoon ‘cleaning’ or trying to go through ‘papers’ etc. from work. We–my husband and I then went to a barbeque at a good friend’s. We’ve been friends since high school although have known each other since elementary school. She, her husband and family celebrate New Year’s at our house–we started doing getting together for New Year’s when we–I was 17…This was um many years ago. Her parents were there. Amazing–they don’t look any older than I remember them looking 25 years ago. They must be in their late 70’s/mid 80’s but my impression of them is in their um 60’s. However, her inlaws whom I met in my teens are even younger but are dealing with health issues and seem 30 years older… I am not sure what I am trying to say other than share a perpective I had and how it has changed since my dx but even more this year. My husband and I got home just in time to see the city fireworks–from our backyard–something of a tradition while listening to simulcast radio station playing patriotic music–including Ray Charles’ "America the Beautiful." My husband held me in his arms. I asked for his handkerchief–quite nostalgic and of course wondered if how many more 4th of July’s I’d see. I try not to think like that but as I mentioned before these things just pop into my mind–like the thought I had several days ago–when browsing through our local paper and coming upon the obit’s–something that is done almost daily–not that I read them all the time–but my husband checks to see if any of his elderly patients’ names are there. Well, when I did it–the thought of whether or not there were any decent pics of me to be used should it be needed occurred. I was a bit freaked although mostly existential about the thought and quickly dismissed it from my mind. I then went on the treadmill for 30 min as I watched some of the "Twilight Zone" marathon. Then I went online and read Jennifer, Catharine’s sister’s post, which saddened me–not fair–and made me feel powerless in the face of all this. I so wish I could do something to change what has happened and help…sigh… So, now, I sit here typing, feeling somewhat tired. I am a bit scared that I might have something spinal-related. I should go downstairs and check to see how many are there. At last count there were 13–before the doorbell rang and one of my daughter’s friends said that someone else needed directions. Yep, it’s 11:45 and they are just arriving. I asked if any food was needed. I was told not for tonight. My daughter asked if she could have the cast of the play she’s in over for a slumber party. Of course I agreed. (I know I gotta be nuts to be having this many teens–coed–between 15 and 19 for the night, but they are great kids–in the local teen musical that kids come from all over the L.A. area to audition for. 80 girls auditioned for 13 female roles. Oh, forgot to mention they are doing "The Pirates of Penzance" in a few weeks. I guess we (husband and I) should stay up most of the night because there are a good number under 18. We probably won’t but will stay up a few more hours and of course make sure we have breakfast for all. There are 15 here so far. Some are in the living room playing one of my favorite songs from "Rent." Some are in the family room and others are in the adjacent dance room where we have a mini pool table and Fiser-Price pinball machine. Then there are a bunch in the kitchen. They brought lots of food. I am guessing that it was from where they gathered for dinner before they went off to see the fireworks. I can’t even begin to explain how much this means to me–to share in this vibrant life experience–which takes on a life of its own. Knowing that our youngest, too, who will be a sophmore in college next year is in the throes of a very happy and exciting time in her life. Of course, I would love it if our whole family were here. Our middle daughter, who graduated from college this year with honors, is in the midwest for the summer and next year. Our eldest, who visited a couple of weeks ago, is back in Boston after spending a week in Texas (where she spent a year dancing professionally before starting medschool) staying with good friends (who I met online)–astronomy professors from Texas (Sandy L–I think you know of them/him). What does this all have to do with cancer–breast cancer? A lot. The ups and downs I am dealing with emotionally take on a life of their own but periodically they can be put aside–during times like this and usually when I am at work… I have done alot of travelling in my life and would love to do more. HOwever, if I knew for sure that my time left here was not that long, I would love to be home with my family and friends or visiting my children in their homes and catching a glimpse of their lives and becoming a small part of that wherever they are…
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It’s 10:15 and the house is very quiet. 7 kids are sound asleep. One is sprawled on the living room floor with a jacket over her head. The others are downstairs in the family room on the couches and/or floor. I am upstairs (we have tri-level). I was sure that they would all be up after the one parent rang the bell, setting off our dog who went into a length round of deep barking. Several stirred but and some seemed as if they were about to get up but it looks as if all went right back to sleep. Having the kids here fulfills me with a different sense of life that is hard to explain. It is a kind of connectedness–not sure how else to describe. Yet, they are different–black, Asian, white, varying ethnicities, I am sure. We live in one of, if not, ‘the’ safest city in the country. I wish I felt that same sense of closeness and connectedness in regard to safety of my own health. As I sit here feeling content in some ways I am filled with fear–fear that my body is riddled with cancer. The difficulty I’ve developed with my eyesight–the two black spots that always seem to be there make me wonder if cancer cells are pepper throughout my brain. I read that as a description re. such. I worry that the discomfort in the back of my neck and pressure on my head–feels like something is squishing it down somewhat is related to possible spinal mets. Past scans have alluded to such. The discomfort in my spinal column reinforces those fears. Then there is again the increased lower abdominal, pelvic discomfort and sudden change in bowel function. It feels as if there is a strange pressure in the rectal area. Several days ago there was a narowing of stools. Then it changed to something else and then sudden constipation despite a diet burdened with the ‘right’ fresh fruits for that not to happen. Yes, I am very much afraid. I am not even sure why I am writing this here. Originally I only wanted to post online to get info and offer support. Well, that is not what I am currently doing. Do I need support? Or do I need to know what is really going on? And can one separate those needs? I think so. I know I must sound to some overly paranoid–that is how my writing comes across and other to my husband and have not expressed these concerns to others. I know there is a truth to the reality of my fears based on what I have come to understand about the type of b.c. I have. As I type there is pain in my left collarbone. Would that be mets? I took the sleeve off my right arm. My hand (back of palm) is beginning to look like an inflated balloon. My forearms look like they belong to 2 different people–might right is a about 25% bigger than the left. (Good thing I am left-handed). My left shoulder hurts–it has been hurting for almost a year now. The back of my neck is also tingling. I mentioned my eyes. If I look at the white wall to one side, those two dots faithfully reappear with a thin vertical line adjacent to one. They travel horizontally across my field of vison in a somewhat curved path., with the one on the left (with adjacent vertical line) dropping off vertically as if it had been tossed into a waste recepticle (sp?) or should say trash can. What does this all mean. I am not quite sure…back to the ‘real’ world where I will assume my natural role of "Pollyanna"… Perhaps this is not where I should be sharing these thoughts of fear or ‘gloom and doom.’ After all that may not be helpful to others and certainly is NOT the reality of most breast cancers caught today–especially if caught early. Am I bitter? I would have to say so. Hey, I did all the ‘right’ stuff so anything that might occur would be caught early. I lost, though, having the one that is ‘different’ and having dr’s who dissed what I hesitatingly showed them, and me, not knowing enough at the time to know any better. So, does that make what I am writing any use to anyone else here or does it do more harm than good. Is my expressing this a selfish, petty thing to do. Are my thoughts purely narcissistic and also frightening to others who have just come aboard for their first journey into the world of b.c.? I better get back to reality. I have got reports to finish up for work…
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the other people out there in similar situations. I am so up and down at the moment. It can be so hard. I have not yet been dx’d with recurrence but the symptoms I have had based on my initial pathology would make them more likely that than anything else. << Everyone says how wonderful I am doing and what an inspiration I am, but inside I am a mess I understand. One of my colleagues who has stage IV lymphoma and is very active in his church confessed to me that he was so tired of people telling him that and that his attitude would be what would ‘heal’ him. That places an undue burden on the patient. One does not alway beat cancer. It isn’t possible, and the answers as to who will or won’t aren’t in yet. One does not want to "fail" cancer, but the media hype about positive attitude–although it may help improve the quality of one’s life–may not do anything to help cure cancer. << I will have to wait for all the scans and tests to see if there is any spread. Waiting can be so hard! << My daughter and son-in-law went to a wedding and we babysat. Hope there are going to be many many more like that. How special! I do understand and hope that someday I will be able to attend the weddings of our daughters and be the grandma they never had a chance to have. Right now there are about 8 teens left downstairs sleeping. I awoke to about 12 or 13 left. They were having such a good time last night–playing games together. At one point 16 of them were playing charades. Two others were playing chess with our Simpsons’ chest set. There was alot of genuine, wholesome laughter. My husband didn’t get a lot of sleep though–was woken by burts of it every now and then. I was lucky–took my hearing aids out
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Long for anyone who isn’t interested in this…Today was a busy day. I spent the later morning to early afternoon ‘cleaning’ or trying to go through ‘papers’ etc. from work. We–my husband and I then went to a barbeque at a good friend’s. We’ve been friends since high school although have known each other since elementary school. She, her husband and family celebrate New Year’s at our house–we started doing getting together for New Year’s when we–I was 17…This was um many years ago. Her parents were there. Amazing–they don’t look any older than I remember them looking 25 years ago. They must be in their late 70’s/mid 80’s but my impression of them is in their um 60’s. However, her inlaws whom I met in my teens are even younger but are dealing with health issues and seem 30 years older… I am not sure what I am trying to say other than share a perpective I had and how it has changed since my dx but even more this year. My husband and I got home just in time to see the city fireworks–from our backyard–something of a tradition while listening to simulcast radio station playing patriotic music–including Ray Charles’ "America the Beautiful." My husband held me in his arms. I asked for his handkerchief–quite nostalgic and of course wondered if how many more 4th of July’s I’d see. I try not to think like that but as I mentioned before these things just pop into my mind–like the thought I had several days ago–when browsing through our local paper and coming upon the obit’s–something that is done almost daily–not that I read them all the time–but my husband checks to see if any of his elderly patients’ names are there. Well, when I did it–the thought of whether or not there were any decent pics of me to be used should it be needed occurred. I was a bit freaked although mostly existential about the thought and quickly dismissed it from my mind. I then went on the treadmill for 30 min as I watched some of the "Twilight Zone" marathon. Then I went online and read Jennifer, Catharine’s sister’s post, which saddened me–not fair–and made me feel powerless in the face of all this. I so wish I could do something to change what has happened and help…sigh… So, now, I sit here typing, feeling somewhat tired. I am a bit scared that I might have something spinal-related. I should go downstairs and check to see how many are there. At last count there were 13–before the doorbell rang and one of my daughter’s friends said that someone else needed directions. Yep, it’s 11:45 and they are just arriving. I asked if any food was needed. I was told not for tonight. My daughter asked if she could have the cast of the play she’s in over for a slumber party. Of course I agreed. (I know I gotta be nuts to be having this many teens–coed–between 15 and 19 for the night, but they are great kids–in the local teen musical that kids come from all over the L.A. area to audition for. 80 girls auditioned for 13 female roles. Oh, forgot to mention they are doing "The Pirates of Penzance" in a few weeks. I guess we (husband and I) should stay up most of the night because there are a good number under 18. We probably won’t but will stay up a few more hours and of course make sure we have breakfast for all. There are 15 here so far. Some are in the living room playing one of my favorite songs from "Rent." Some are in the family room and others are in the adjacent dance room where we have a mini pool table and Fiser-Price pinball machine. Then there are a bunch in the kitchen. They brought lots of food. I am guessing that it was from where they gathered for dinner before they went off to see the fireworks. I can’t even begin to explain how much this means to me–to share in this vibrant life experience–which takes on a life of its own. Knowing that our youngest, too, who will be a sophmore in college next year is in the throes of a very happy and exciting time in her life. Of course, I would love it if our whole family were here. Our middle daughter, who graduated from college this year with honors, is in the midwest for the summer and next year. Our eldest, who visited a couple of weeks ago, is back in Boston after spending a week in Texas (where she spent a year dancing professionally before starting medschool) staying with good friends (who I met online)–astronomy professors from Texas (Sandy L–I think you know of them/him). What does this all have to do with cancer–breast cancer? A lot. The ups and downs I am dealing with emotionally take on a life of their own but periodically they can be put aside–during times like this and usually when I am at work… I have done alot of travelling in my life and would love to do more. HOwever, if I knew for sure that my time left here was not that long, I would love to be home with my family and friends or visiting my children in their homes and catching a glimpse of their lives and becoming a small part of that wherever they are…
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Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – eveline 
In fact it’s nice even when you’re well. The vague let-me-know thing is difficult, I’ve done it myself when I’ve genuinely not known how to help – or even if help would be welcome. But it does put the responsibility onto the one who needs help and that can be a burden. I have that problem every day with my husbband – in every aspect of life. He’ll do anything I ask – but I have to ask and sometimes I feel like screaming at him to just THINK! But hey, most of the time I accept that we’re all different. Sorry to go on, must be tired. Off to bed now! Mary – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Ann T. 