Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll

Question:

Alan S wrote: > An unfortunate choice of phrasing there. Most medical > professionals are loath to admit that they have patients > dying daily. It tends to imply that something in their > treatment may be lacking.

When you receive medical treatment and you die anyway, do you still have to pay for the treatment? I’ve always thought that unfair, but the dead don’t mind. — the Danimal

Response:

Alan S wrote: > An unfortunate choice of phrasing there. Most medical > professionals are loath to admit that they have patients > dying daily. It tends to imply that something in their > treatment may be lacking.

Let me put it this way, every  human on earth will die, it is only a question of when.   Only Duncan McLeod is immortal…..

Response:

ROTFL DW wrote: > Alan S wrote: >>An unfortunate choice of phrasing there. Most medical >>professionals are loath to admit that they have patients >>dying daily. It tends to imply that something in their >>treatment may be lacking. > Let me put it this way, every  human on earth will die, it is > only a question of when.   Only Duncan McLeod is immortal…..

– "…in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" Glen Cook

Response:

"Susie Quill" <sus…@vzpacifica.net> wrote in message

news:4269b25e_1@127.0.0.1… > Teddy, > Do you know what the word "assume" means.  It makes an > ass out of you and me.  My facts are straight.  I have a Masters in > Nutrition from an accredited university, I’m Registered as a Dietitian, > and I have 35 years of experience in the field.  I see patients younger > then me dying, almost daily. > Susie

Well, yes, it’s amazing how sick people can die anyway. Touting the fact that your patients die does not lend strength to your claims of expertise.

Response:

On Sat, 23 Apr 2005 12:23:12 +1000, "Susie Quill" <sus…@vzpacifica.net> wrote: >Teddy, >Do you know what the word "assume" means.  It makes an >ass out of you and me.  My facts are straight.  I have a Masters in >Nutrition from an accredited university, I’m Registered as a Dietitian, and >I have 35 years of experience in the field.  I see patients younger then me >dying, almost daily. >Susie

An unfortunate choice of phrasing there. Most medical professionals are loath to admit that they have patients dying daily. It tends to imply that something in their treatment may be lacking. But I’ll admit that any person who appears on misc.health.diabetes admitting to "a Masters in Nutrition from an accredited university, I’m Registered as a Dietitian, and I have 35 years of experience in the field" is very, very, brave. Full marks for courage there:-) Now, give us an opinion on the implications of the newly released MyPyramid from the USDA and it’s implications for type 2 diabetics. How do you think it compares with the Harvard Food Pyramid? For diabetics, that is, not just the general population. What are your highly qualified thoughts for the implications for type 2 diabetes on weight loss assisting (or not) BG control, self-monitoring BG testing, carbohydrate proportions of diet, diurnal variations and carb intake, excessive use of meds/insulin to balance carbs – the list goes on, but that’s enough for one post. Awaiting your answer with bated breath in anticipation of learning. Cheers Alan, T2, Australia. — Everything in Moderation – Except Laughter.

Response:

This is a typical example of ignorant people and anecdotes There was PLENTY of diabetes there.It was undiagnosed.  people just died. the plural of anecdote is NOT "data" incidentally Sardinia, an island with the highest diabetes rates, was never invaded by Japan.  I don’t know what island you mean, but I assume it is in the Pacific,  I also assume that your other "facts" are as inaccurate. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Susie Quill wrote: > "DW" <DrWoodardO…@hotmail.com> wrote in message > news:1114100143.599246.120300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >>the Danimal wrote: >>>Causes of death? >>Nothing out of the ordinary.   The same stuff older people >>die of (heart attacks, etc.)     Most of those who >>died in their 40s were not overweight, no heavy smokers, >>etc. >>>Did you count all the people you knew who drank a lot, smoked like >>>a chimney, etc., and did not make it to their 80s or 90s? >>Of all the ones who drank, smoked, etc. in their early years they >>are all still alive.   The ones who avoided smoking, drinking, etc. >>can’t say that. >>>Apparently there is a lot "we" don’t know about statistics. >>I’m not going by statistics, i’m going by people I actually know. >>>That’s hard to say. Even if you managed to avoid the diseases, >>>you might have killed yourself by driving drunk, or falling >>>asleep in bed with a cigarette and burning down your house. >>>Plus, think of the sheer waste of money. All that money you saved >>>by not drugging yourself through life is available for you to >>>enjoy now. >>I think alot of it has to do with mental attitude, how you ate as >>a kid in the early years, etc. >>I wonder if many illness we suffer from ultimately are traced back >>to improper eating.   Or something like luck.    We don’t know what >>causes cancer for example, but they’re finding that Breast Cancer is >>more prevalant in afluent areas.    (Maybe the afluent are more >>apt to visit a doctor?) >>In the mean time this is one person who is older than dirt who >>was stupid enough to not smoke, drink, etc.   When it comes to >>death, smoking, drinking, etc. we’ve only just disscovered >>a tiny tip of a gigantic eceberg.   For all the advances in >>medical science we’ve got a long way to go before we see the >>big picture.   One thing is obvious, there is a lot more >>to how long we live than just whether we smoke, drink, are >>overweight, etc. > The third highest rate of diabetes in the world, is on the island I’m > working on.  The diet is high fat, spam, corned beef, sausages, fried fish, > fried chicken, hot dogs, and so on. > A lot of them smoke and drink and drink heavy.  We have the highest rate of > intake of one particular type of beer on this island, world wide, and we > have the highest per capita rate of intake for spam.  We have lots of > amputations, renal disease, early deaths in their 40’s and 50’s. > These people used to hunt, fish, farm, walked every where (no cars) wore > very little, ate lots of fruits, vegetables, and fish, and they lived to be > very old, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and even in to their 100’s.  .  There was no > diabetes here when WWII broke out. > They now eat very few fruits and vegetables.  They mainly eat the high fat > meats that was introduced to them by the American soldiers.  Well, the > island was bombed out and the Americans shared what they had.  The islanders > fell in love with spam.  Didn’t have to hunt for it, fish for it, or plant > it. > Also,  rice that the Japanese introduced when they had this island is now a > daily staple in their diet.  Forget eating high fiber cereals, and breads. > They don’t think they have eaten unless they have their rice. > Fruits and vegetables have nutrients in them that protect us from various > disease.  The high fat, saturated fat meats clog the arteries causing heart > disease.  Fish has omega 3 fatty acids in it that is good for the > heart…..as long as you don’t fry the fish.  They also had a low salt diet, > and now they eat a lot of soy sauce. > Does diet affect health, disease, life span. > You betcha.  I see it every day and it breaks my heart. > Susie > —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- > http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups > —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

– "…in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" Glen Cook

Response:

Teddy, Do you know what the word "assume" means.  It makes an ass out of you and me.  My facts are straight.  I have a Masters in Nutrition from an accredited university, I’m Registered as a Dietitian, and I have 35 years of experience in the field.  I see patients younger then me dying, almost daily. Susie "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenb…@iname.com> wrote in message

news:4268F49B.2010402@iname.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> This is a typical example of ignorant people and anecdotes > There was PLENTY of diabetes there.It was undiagnosed.  people just died. > the plural of anecdote is NOT "data" > incidentally Sardinia, an island with the highest diabetes rates, was > never invaded by Japan.  I don’t know what island you mean, but I assume > it is in the Pacific,  I also assume that your other "facts" are as > inaccurate. > Susie Quill wrote: >> "DW" <DrWoodardO…@hotmail.com> wrote in message >> news:1114100143.599246.120300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >>>the Danimal wrote: >>>>Causes of death? >>>Nothing out of the ordinary.   The same stuff older people >>>die of (heart attacks, etc.)     Most of those who >>>died in their 40s were not overweight, no heavy smokers, >>>etc. >>>>Did you count all the people you knew who drank a lot, smoked like >>>>a chimney, etc., and did not make it to their 80s or 90s? >>>Of all the ones who drank, smoked, etc. in their early years they >>>are all still alive.   The ones who avoided smoking, drinking, etc. >>>can’t say that. >>>>Apparently there is a lot "we" don’t know about statistics. >>>I’m not going by statistics, i’m going by people I actually know. >>>>That’s hard to say. Even if you managed to avoid the diseases, >>>>you might have killed yourself by driving drunk, or falling >>>>asleep in bed with a cigarette and burning down your house. >>>>Plus, think of the sheer waste of money. All that money you saved >>>>by not drugging yourself through life is available for you to >>>>enjoy now. >>>I think alot of it has to do with mental attitude, how you ate as >>>a kid in the early years, etc. >>>I wonder if many illness we suffer from ultimately are traced back >>>to improper eating.   Or something like luck.    We don’t know what >>>causes cancer for example, but they’re finding that Breast Cancer is >>>more prevalant in afluent areas.    (Maybe the afluent are more >>>apt to visit a doctor?) >>>In the mean time this is one person who is older than dirt who >>>was stupid enough to not smoke, drink, etc.   When it comes to >>>death, smoking, drinking, etc. we’ve only just disscovered >>>a tiny tip of a gigantic eceberg.   For all the advances in >>>medical science we’ve got a long way to go before we see the >>>big picture.   One thing is obvious, there is a lot more >>>to how long we live than just whether we smoke, drink, are >>>overweight, etc. >> The third highest rate of diabetes in the world, is on the island I’m >> working on.  The diet is high fat, spam, corned beef, sausages, fried >> fish, fried chicken, hot dogs, and so on. >> A lot of them smoke and drink and drink heavy.  We have the highest rate >> of intake of one particular type of beer on this island, world wide, and >> we have the highest per capita rate of intake for spam.  We have lots of >> amputations, renal disease, early deaths in their 40’s and 50’s. >> These people used to hunt, fish, farm, walked every where (no cars) wore >> very little, ate lots of fruits, vegetables, and fish, and they lived to >> be very old, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and even in to their 100’s.  .  There was >> no diabetes here when WWII broke out. >> They now eat very few fruits and vegetables.  They mainly eat the high >> fat meats that was introduced to them by the American soldiers.  Well, >> the island was bombed out and the Americans shared what they had.  The >> islanders fell in love with spam.  Didn’t have to hunt for it, fish for >> it, or plant it. >> Also,  rice that the Japanese introduced when they had this island is now >> a daily staple in their diet.  Forget eating high fiber cereals, and >> breads. They don’t think they have eaten unless they have their rice. >> Fruits and vegetables have nutrients in them that protect us from various >> disease.  The high fat, saturated fat meats clog the arteries causing >> heart disease.  Fish has omega 3 fatty acids in it that is good for the >> heart…..as long as you don’t fry the fish.  They also had a low salt >> diet, and now they eat a lot of soy sauce. >> Does diet affect health, disease, life span. >> You betcha.  I see it every day and it breaks my heart. >> Susie >> —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet >> News==—- >> http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ >> Newsgroups >> —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption >> =—- > — > "…in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall > of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" > Glen Cook

—-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

Gee it seems that the schools you went to should have required some math There is not a lot "we" don’t know about statistics there is a lot YOU don’t know about statistics I’d flunk you in a flash Your grasp of morbidity and mortality in populations is so bad that I find it hard to believe that you graduated high school. You don’t have the slightest idea what you are talking about. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Susie Quill wrote: > Teddy, > Do you know what the word "assume" means.  It makes an > ass out of you and me.  My facts are straight.  I have a Masters in > Nutrition from an accredited university, I’m Registered as a Dietitian, and > I have 35 years of experience in the field.  I see patients younger then me > dying, almost daily. > Susie > "ted rosenberg" <tedrosenb…@iname.com> wrote in message > news:4268F49B.2010402@iname.com… >>This is a typical example of ignorant people and anecdotes >>There was PLENTY of diabetes there.It was undiagnosed.  people just died. >>the plural of anecdote is NOT "data" >>incidentally Sardinia, an island with the highest diabetes rates, was >>never invaded by Japan.  I don’t know what island you mean, but I assume >>it is in the Pacific,  I also assume that your other "facts" are as >>inaccurate. >>Susie Quill wrote: >>>"DW" <DrWoodardO…@hotmail.com> wrote in message >>>news:1114100143.599246.120300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… >>>>the Danimal wrote: >>>>>Causes of death? >>>>Nothing out of the ordinary.   The same stuff older people >>>>die of (heart attacks, etc.)     Most of those who >>>>died in their 40s were not overweight, no heavy smokers, >>>>etc. >>>>>Did you count all the people you knew who drank a lot, smoked like >>>>>a chimney, etc., and did not make it to their 80s or 90s? >>>>Of all the ones who drank, smoked, etc. in their early years they >>>>are all still alive.   The ones who avoided smoking, drinking, etc. >>>>can’t say that. >>>>>Apparently there is a lot "we" don’t know about statistics. >>>>I’m not going by statistics, i’m going by people I actually know. >>>>>That’s hard to say. Even if you managed to avoid the diseases, >>>>>you might have killed yourself by driving drunk, or falling >>>>>asleep in bed with a cigarette and burning down your house. >>>>>Plus, think of the sheer waste of money. All that money you saved >>>>>by not drugging yourself through life is available for you to >>>>>enjoy now. >>>>I think alot of it has to do with mental attitude, how you ate as >>>>a kid in the early years, etc. >>>>I wonder if many illness we suffer from ultimately are traced back >>>>to improper eating.   Or something like luck.    We don’t know what >>>>causes cancer for example, but they’re finding that Breast Cancer is >>>>more prevalant in afluent areas.    (Maybe the afluent are more >>>>apt to visit a doctor?) >>>>In the mean time this is one person who is older than dirt who >>>>was stupid enough to not smoke, drink, etc.   When it comes to >>>>death, smoking, drinking, etc. we’ve only just disscovered >>>>a tiny tip of a gigantic eceberg.   For all the advances in >>>>medical science we’ve got a long way to go before we see the >>>>big picture.   One thing is obvious, there is a lot more >>>>to how long we live than just whether we smoke, drink, are >>>>overweight, etc. >>>The third highest rate of diabetes in the world, is on the island I’m >>>working on.  The diet is high fat, spam, corned beef, sausages, fried >>>fish, fried chicken, hot dogs, and so on. >>>A lot of them smoke and drink and drink heavy.  We have the highest rate >>>of intake of one particular type of beer on this island, world wide, and >>>we have the highest per capita rate of intake for spam.  We have lots of >>>amputations, renal disease, early deaths in their 40’s and 50’s. >>>These people used to hunt, fish, farm, walked every where (no cars) wore >>>very little, ate lots of fruits, vegetables, and fish, and they lived to >>>be very old, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and even in to their 100’s.  .  There was >>>no diabetes here when WWII broke out. >>>They now eat very few fruits and vegetables.  They mainly eat the high >>>fat meats that was introduced to them by the American soldiers.  Well, >>>the island was bombed out and the Americans shared what they had.  The >>>islanders fell in love with spam.  Didn’t have to hunt for it, fish for >>>it, or plant it. >>>Also,  rice that the Japanese introduced when they had this island is now >>>a daily staple in their diet.  Forget eating high fiber cereals, and >>>breads. They don’t think they have eaten unless they have their rice. >>>Fruits and vegetables have nutrients in them that protect us from various >>>disease.  The high fat, saturated fat meats clog the arteries causing >>>heart disease.  Fish has omega 3 fatty acids in it that is good for the >>>heart…..as long as you don’t fry the fish.  They also had a low salt >>>diet, and now they eat a lot of soy sauce. >>>Does diet affect health, disease, life span. >>>You betcha.  I see it every day and it breaks my heart. >>>Susie

"…in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" Glen Cook

Response:

"DW" <DrWoodardO…@hotmail.com> wrote in message

news:1114100143.599246.120300@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> the Danimal wrote: >> Causes of death? > Nothing out of the ordinary.   The same stuff older people > die of (heart attacks, etc.)     Most of those who > died in their 40s were not overweight, no heavy smokers, > etc. >> Did you count all the people you knew who drank a lot, smoked like >> a chimney, etc., and did not make it to their 80s or 90s? > Of all the ones who drank, smoked, etc. in their early years they > are all still alive.   The ones who avoided smoking, drinking, etc. > can’t say that. >> Apparently there is a lot "we" don’t know about statistics. > I’m not going by statistics, i’m going by people I actually know. >> That’s hard to say. Even if you managed to avoid the diseases, >> you might have killed yourself by driving drunk, or falling >> asleep in bed with a cigarette and burning down your house. >> Plus, think of the sheer waste of money. All that money you saved >> by not drugging yourself through life is available for you to >> enjoy now. > I think alot of it has to do with mental attitude, how you ate as > a kid in the early years, etc. > I wonder if many illness we suffer from ultimately are traced back > to improper eating.   Or something like luck.    We don’t know what > causes cancer for example, but they’re finding that Breast Cancer is > more prevalant in afluent areas.    (Maybe the afluent are more > apt to visit a doctor?) > In the mean time this is one person who is older than dirt who > was stupid enough to not smoke, drink, etc.   When it comes to > death, smoking, drinking, etc. we’ve only just disscovered > a tiny tip of a gigantic eceberg.   For all the advances in > medical science we’ve got a long way to go before we see the > big picture.   One thing is obvious, there is a lot more > to how long we live than just whether we smoke, drink, are > overweight, etc.

The third highest rate of diabetes in the world, is on the island I’m working on.  The diet is high fat, spam, corned beef, sausages, fried fish, fried chicken, hot dogs, and so on. A lot of them smoke and drink and drink heavy.  We have the highest rate of intake of one particular type of beer on this island, world wide, and we have the highest per capita rate of intake for spam.  We have lots of amputations, renal disease, early deaths in their 40’s and 50’s. These people used to hunt, fish, farm, walked every where (no cars) wore very little, ate lots of fruits, vegetables, and fish, and they lived to be very old, 70’s, 80’s, 90’s and even in to their 100’s.  .  There was no diabetes here when WWII broke out. They now eat very few fruits and vegetables.  They mainly eat the high fat meats that was introduced to them by the American soldiers.  Well, the island was bombed out and the Americans shared what they had.  The islanders fell in love with spam.  Didn’t have to hunt for it, fish for it, or plant it. Also,  rice that the Japanese introduced when they had this island is now a daily staple in their diet.  Forget eating high fiber cereals, and breads. They don’t think they have eaten unless they have their rice. Fruits and vegetables have nutrients in them that protect us from various disease.  The high fat, saturated fat meats clog the arteries causing heart disease.  Fish has omega 3 fatty acids in it that is good for the heart…..as long as you don’t fry the fish.  They also had a low salt diet, and now they eat a lot of soy sauce. Does diet affect health, disease, life span. You betcha.  I see it every day and it breaks my heart. Susie —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

the Danimal wrote: > Causes of death?

Nothing out of the ordinary.   The same stuff older people die of (heart attacks, etc.)     Most of those who died in their 40s were not overweight, no heavy smokers, etc. > Did you count all the people you knew who drank a lot, smoked like > a chimney, etc., and did not make it to their 80s or 90s?

Of all the ones who drank, smoked, etc. in their early years they are all still alive.   The ones who avoided smoking, drinking, etc. can’t say that. > Apparently there is a lot "we" don’t know about statistics.

I’m not going by statistics, i’m going by people I actually know. > That’s hard to say. Even if you managed to avoid the diseases, > you might have killed yourself by driving drunk, or falling > asleep in bed with a cigarette and burning down your house. > Plus, think of the sheer waste of money. All that money you saved > by not drugging yourself through life is available for you to > enjoy now.

I think alot of it has to do with mental attitude, how you ate as a kid in the early years, etc. I wonder if many illness we suffer from ultimately are traced back to improper eating.   Or something like luck.    We don’t know what causes cancer for example, but they’re finding that Breast Cancer is more prevalant in afluent areas.    (Maybe the afluent are more apt to visit a doctor?) In the mean time this is one person who is older than dirt who was stupid enough to not smoke, drink, etc.   When it comes to death, smoking, drinking, etc. we’ve only just disscovered a tiny tip of a gigantic eceberg.   For all the advances in medical science we’ve got a long way to go before we see the big picture.   One thing is obvious, there is a lot more to how long we live than just whether we smoke, drink, are overweight, etc.

Response:

It is total bullcrap crossposted by a troll – didn’t you look at the ctpsspost list, I removed "alt.troll" I cam make a longer list of people who were THIN and died. That list would be equally worthyless The plural of anecdote is NOT "data" – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Uncle Enrico wrote: > Catharine Honeyman wrote: >> Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll >> Fat Acceptor:  Age:  Cause: >> Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer >> Margaret Wetherbee 45  Massive infection >> Susan Mason  47  Unknown >> Joy Hilbert  40  Post Operative Complications >> Barb Colgin Vance Unknown  Unknown >> Leslie Dimaggio  60  Cancer >> Ray Simpson  57  Diabetes >> Rich Reynolds  40  Unknown >> Lenore Levine  53-54  Ovarian Cancer >> Deanna Warren  early 30’s Natural Causes (According to NAAFA!) > Thanks for posting this, Catherine. These folks all died pretty young. > It’s information like this that motivates me to fight on against my > harmful inclinations, one of which is making excuses.

– "…in addition to being foreign territory the past is, as history, a hall of mirrors that reflect the needs of souls observing from the present" Glen Cook

Response:

- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Catharine Honeyman wrote: > Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll > Fat Acceptor:  Age:  Cause: > Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer > Margaret Wetherbee 45  Massive infection > Susan Mason  47  Unknown > Joy Hilbert  40  Post Operative Complications > Barb Colgin Vance Unknown  Unknown > Leslie Dimaggio  60  Cancer > Ray Simpson  57  Diabetes > Rich Reynolds  40  Unknown > Lenore Levine  53-54  Ovarian Cancer > Deanna Warren  early 30’s Natural Causes (According to NAAFA!)

Thanks for posting this, Catherine. These folks all died pretty young. It’s information like this that motivates me to fight on against my harmful inclinations, one of which is making excuses.

Response:

Uncle Enrico wrote: > Catharine Honeyman wrote: > > Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll > > Fat Acceptor:  Age:  Cause: > > Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer > Thanks for posting this, Catherine. These folks all died pretty young. > It’s information like this that motivates me to fight on against my > harmful inclinations, one of which is making excuses.

Would it be a harmful inclination not to wonder how "Catherine Honeyman" after posthumously announcing her own death will react to being thanked for doing so? — the Danimal

Response:

"the Danimal" <dmoc…@mfm.com> wrote in message

news:1114009393.840852.125320@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Uncle Enrico wrote: >> Catharine Honeyman wrote: >> > Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll >> > Fat Acceptor:  Age:  Cause: >> > Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer >> Thanks for posting this, Catherine. These folks all died pretty > young. >> It’s information like this that motivates me to fight on against my >> harmful inclinations, one of which is making excuses. > Would it be a harmful inclination not to wonder how > "Catherine Honeyman" after posthumously announcing her > own death will react to being thanked for doing so? > — the Danimal

Now, Dan, if you had any concept of the afterlife, you would know she’s  looking down on Usenet nodding approvingly …

Response:

Uncle Enrico <Un…@nospam.com> wrote in news:oYt9e.9437$An2.8902 @newsread2.news.pas.earthlink.net: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Catharine Honeyman wrote: >> Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll >> Fat Acceptor:  Age:  Cause: >> Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer >> Margaret Wetherbee 45  Massive infection >> Susan Mason  47  Unknown >> Joy Hilbert  40  Post Operative Complications >> Barb Colgin Vance Unknown  Unknown >> Leslie Dimaggio  60  Cancer >> Ray Simpson  57  Diabetes >> Rich Reynolds  40  Unknown >> Lenore Levine  53-54  Ovarian Cancer >> Deanna Warren  early 30’s Natural Causes (According to NAAFA!) > Thanks for posting this, Catherine. These folks all died pretty young. > It’s information like this that motivates me to fight on against my > harmful inclinations, one of which is making excuses.

Not like anyone cross-posting to alt.troll, using an anonymous remailer, and forging a dead persons address could possibly be expected to post any fat-acceptor who died old and happy (before you ask, the pope comes to mind). I understand that obsession and stressing has about the same life expectancy. Gandalf  Parker

Response:

Gandalf Parker wrote: > Not like anyone cross-posting to alt.troll, using an anonymous remailer, > and forging a dead persons address could possibly be expected to post any > fat-acceptor who died old and happy (before you ask, the pope comes to > mind). I understand that obsession and stressing has about the same life > expectancy.

Can you give us a list of obsessive stressers who died young? — the Danimal, the real question is did they die happy

Response:

"the Danimal" <dmoc…@mfm.com> wrote in news:1114014243.030072.60500@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com: > Gandalf Parker wrote: >> Not like anyone cross-posting to alt.troll, using an anonymous remailer, >> and forging a dead persons address could possibly be expected to post any >> fat-acceptor who died old and happy (before you ask, the pope comes to >> mind). I understand that obsession and stressing has about the same life >> expectancy. > Can you give us a list of obsessive stressers who died young? > — the Danimal, the real question is did they die happy

Probably, but Im not into the name list. The first one seemed trollish enough. But there are as many studies condemning stress as there are condemning obesity. However, Im with you. The real question is, did they die happy. My wife for one is a person who is very unhappy when not obsessing over things like work. She actually never feels ill except when she is on vacation. Im quite the oppossite Gandalf  Parker

Response:

"DW" <DrWoodardO…@hotmail.com> wrote in news:1114025876.562534.56330 @z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com: > I have to wonder if I was stupid to lay off the booze, not smoke, > etc.   all those years.

Yep next year is my mid-centennial birthday. As part of the obligatory mid- life crisis Im beginning to wonder the same. Im definetly not hot on the idea of giving up enjoying food and favorite pasttimes for some "you could lose 3-5 years off of" my estimated 75 year lifespan. Everything has its pros and cons. Gandalf  Parker

Response:

DW wrote: > the Danimal wrote: > > Can you give us a list of obsessive stressers who died young? > I’m probably older than most everyone on this newsgroup and > I have  to say i’ve known too many people who never smoked, > drank, or did drugs in their life, exercised every day, (some > ran marathons, climbed mountains, etc.) and they ended up > dead in their early 40s.

Causes of death? > On the other hand I know many people who drank alot, smoked > like a chimney, are overweight, never excercised, > and they are now in their 80s and 90s at least and healthier than > many in their 40s 50s and 60s.

How do they compare to their identical twins who practiced clean living? Did you count all the people you knew who drank a lot, smoked like a chimney, etc., and did not make it to their 80s or 90s? > There is alot we don’t know about the human body,

Apparently there is a lot "we" don’t know about statistics. > there is > much more to life expectancy than just weight.   Who knows how > many hundreds of years it will be before we know why.

Depending on who you mean by "we," it might not require hundreds of years to understand how one person’s molecules differ from another person’s molecules, and how the differences affect their lifespans. Discovery does not proceed linearly. As science and technology improve in general, the time it takes to tackle some particular unsolved problem decreases. Maybe in just 20 years, or 50 years, machines will read your DNA and list off all your specific health risks. Maybe in another 20 or 50 years after that, machines will fix all our genetic defects. > I have to wonder if I was stupid to lay off the booze, not smoke, > etc.   all those years.

That’s hard to say. Even if you managed to avoid the diseases, you might have killed yourself by driving drunk, or falling asleep in bed with a cigarette and burning down your house. Plus, think of the sheer waste of money. All that money you saved by not drugging yourself through life is available for you to enjoy now. — the Danimal

Response:

the Danimal wrote: > Can you give us a list of obsessive stressers who died young?

I’m probably older than most everyone on this newsgroup and I have  to say i’ve known too many people who never smoked, drank, or did drugs in their life, exercised every day, (some ran marathons, climbed mountains, etc.) and they ended up dead in their early 40s. On the other hand I know many people who drank alot, smoked like a chimney, are overweight, never excercised, and they are now in their 80s and 90s at least and healthier than many in their 40s 50s and 60s. There is alot we don’t know about the human body, there is much more to life expectancy than just weight.   Who knows how many hundreds of years it will be before we know why. I have to wonder if I was stupid to lay off the booze, not smoke, etc.   all those years.

Response:

Catharine Honeyman wrote: > Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer > Leslie Dimaggio  60  Cancer > Lenore Levine  53-54  Ovarian Cancer

So your point is cancer kiills people no matter what their ages are? Cancer is an equal opportunity killer? You do raelize I know a number of women who had breast cancer with no weight problems at all?

Response:

>> Catharine Honeyman wrote: >> > Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer >Would it be a harmful inclination not to wonder how >"Catherine Honeyman" after posthumously announcing her >own death will react to being thanked for doing so?

I was wondering  this too……. —-== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com – Unlimited-Uncensored-Secure Usenet News==—- http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups —-= East and West-Coast Server Farms – Total Privacy via Encryption =—-

Response:

Catharine Honeyman wrote: > Margaret Wetherbee 45  Massive infection > Joy Hilbert  40  Post Operative Complications

Maybe the same cause of death, maybe from someting unrelated to weight. > Barb Colgin Vance Unknown  Unknown > Rich Reynolds  40  Unknown

Again maybe nothing related to weight.   Infection due to improper procedures at the hospital? > Deanna Warren  early 30’s Natural Causes (According to NAAFA!)

Again maybe infection.   So what is your point?

Response:

Fat Acceptance Pioneer Death Toll Fat Acceptor:  Age:  Cause: Catherine Honeyman 40  Breast cancer Margaret Wetherbee 45  Massive infection Susan Mason  47  Unknown Joy Hilbert  40  Post Operative Complications Barb Colgin Vance Unknown  Unknown Leslie Dimaggio  60  Cancer Ray Simpson  57  Diabetes Rich Reynolds  40  Unknown Lenore Levine  53-54  Ovarian Cancer Deanna Warren  early 30’s Natural Causes (According to NAAFA!)

Response:

a book

Question:

Interestig that your onc. cited financial motives and research to refute the findings in this book. Ironic since breast cancer is a multi-million dollar industry now filling many pockets. I’ve just started the book and it has already refered to several research studies. My surgeon said the rates of cancer were just as bad in other countries but since then I’ve read of two others that were better. I’d like to find the statistics on this but don’t know where to look

Response:

<< Interestig that your onc. cited financial motives and research to refute the findings in this book. I thought so too but he was suggesting personal financial motive of the author.  Also, I am with a non-profit HMO and to show you their logic–they have one set of responses for whether or not someone should get a PET scan before they have it and then, if something is going on, they say it isn’t helpful since they don’t have a baseline.  So, when they hear of new ideas and treatments that they are unaware of them need to come up with some rhetoric, which has some possible credence, to refute them since all they are responsible for is "standard" (not necessarily optimal) care.

Response:

I’m supposed to have my left breast removed Wed. I have Ductal catagory one.  The lump is large and in the center of my small breast so even tho the doc doesn’t think it has spread he said I wouldn’t be happy with a lumpectomy. My Naturopathic doc said I must read "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Breast Cancer" by John R. Lee MD.  Has anyone else read it?

Response:

I’m supposed to have my left breast removed Wed. I have Ductal catagory one.  The lump is large and in the center of my small breast so even tho the doc doesn’t think it has spread he said I wouldn’t be happy with a lumpectomy. My Naturopathic doc said I must read "What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Breast Cancer" by John R. Lee MD.  Has anyone else read it?

I have read that mastectomy is the normal procedure for a large tumour in a small breast regardless of stage, at least partly because the amount of breast that would be left after surgery would not be enough to warrant the extra complications of breast-conserving surgery.  Having lost a major part of the tissue, some sort of prosthesis or reconstruction would be needed if normal appearance is to be restored, and in that case it is often easier to start from scratch. Tim Jackson

Response:

Not Tell You About Breast Cancer" by John R. Lee MD.  Has anyone else read it? Yes, and am not sure what to think other than that even if what he suggests is going on may be true for some, each person’s b.c. is different.  I think more research IS needed in this area.  One factor that has not been addressed enough is how other hormones, particularly testosterone, influence breast cancer. I do think that what he suggests makes sense  for some–but not all–and there are still other related areas not addressed.  I don’t have much of a hard science background, so what I am suggesting may not be accurate.  I really don’t know enough.  I did ask my onc. about it and he made some comment about there being a financial motive to write/sell books and indicated that he (my onc) goes with the research.  However, I am not sure he even knew what this dr. was suggesting and just gave that response as his standard response to info. mentioned to him re. books, etc.

Response:

Help for a friend

Question:

I believe that the chemo list is on the FAQ for this group: www.cancersuporters.com Press ascb at top, then select the Frequently Asked Questions link. Take care. …lisa

Response:

Many thanks Lance,  I will pass this on to her. Carolyn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Hello, Two years ago I started to read this newsgroup because my best friend was diagnosed with BC.  She is doing very well.   I asked for and received very helpful advice.  Now a friend of a friend has just been diagnosed.   Does anyone remember a posting from Boomer which gave a sort of list of dos and donts for friends – stuff like "if you make me a casserole, bring it in a disposable container so I don’t have to worry about returning it".  I would like to give this list to my friend, along with the chemo basket list – can someone please tell me where I can find it? Well, a small update. I actually found the website: Saint Anthony’s Hospital, Alton Illinois: http://www.sahc.org/25tips.html Lance ***** 25 Tips for Those Facing Serious Illnesses When someone we know is facing an illness, especially a serious illness, we often feel helpless. Here are some practical tips to really help someone facing an illness from people who have been there: 1) Don’t avoid me. Be the friend, the loved one, you’ve always been. 2) Touch me. A simple squeeze of my hand can tell me you still care. 3) Call me to tell me you’re bringing my favorite dish and what time you are coming. Bring food in disposable containers, so I won’t worry about returns. 4) Take care of my children for me. I need a little time to be alone with my loved one. My children may also need a little vacation from my illness. 5) Weep with me when I weep. Laugh with me when I laugh. Don’t be afraid to share this with me. 6) Take me out for a pleasure trip, but know my limitations. 7) Call for my shopping list and make a "special" delivery to my home. Call me before you visit, but don’t be afraid to visit. I need you. I am lonely. 9) Help me celebrate holidays (and life!) by decorating my hospital room or home or bringing me tiny gifts of flowers or other natural treasures. 10) Help my family. I am sick, but they may be suffering. Offer to come stay with me to give my loved ones a break. Invite them out. Take them places. 11) Be creative! Bring me a book of thoughts, taped music, a poster for my wall, cookies to share with my family and friends

Expensive urine

Question:

Well, you know my take on a study like that – another fiber fiasco There is no way to get adequate control of enough factors to make any but the simplest diet study worth the paper it is printed on.

That is if one uses crude methods of analysis.  The problem is that few medical researchers can FORMULATE their models well enough to use the more powerful methods.  In fact, a good mathematical statistician can often devise one not in the packages. I have seen a paper which claimed that to get the antioxidant effects of vitamin E, vitamin A and vitamin C also have to be present.  Also, the version of vitamin E which the FDA claims is the only relevant one seems not to be. Herman, One paradox is we see better results from a DIET full of antioxidant foods, than we see from PILLS of antioxidants. So if you eat plenty of fresh fruits & vegetables, and avoid processed foods, avoid fatty and fried foods, people seem to do better. Part of the problem is that lab rats don’t like fruits and vegetables as much. Rat food pellets seem just fine to them. We need more research in real people. There is a study underway in women who have survived breast cancer, and are now eating healthy foods. We’ll see how that turns out. William C Biggs, MD

– This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Response:

I OFTEN disagree with Dr. Biggs – particularly about study design, BUT he is a real doctor, REALLY treats diabetes and is a MAJOR asset to the newsgroup Oh – your "logic" on Vitamin E is typical snake oil hogwash with absolutely no basis in fact.  For YOU I have a BRIDGE – cheap! – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You seem to fail to understand that proving a negative can be very difficult.  Just because the studies you list below failed, they don’t have as much significance as you might think.  One difficulty among many in these kinds of experiments is selecting the two groups of people (the control vs those being tested) so as to be equivalent.  To a non-researcher like yourself, the problem seems trivial.  But actually, this is one of the worst stumbling blocks in this type of research study. You are relying on empirical data for your position, which may or may not be valid.  The reason I would go to the trouble of taking Vitamin E is the fact that there is a very plausible explanation of Vitamin E’s activity as an anti-oxidant. I’m more impressed by causes and effects–you are a slavish follower of statistical studies.  Those are rarely if ever used in the physical sciences.  So that’s why you’re in medicine, and I’m in physics and chemistry. Were you following that fiasco that involved the research trying to establish whether or not substances in the mouth can be absorbed directly there into the bloodstream?  I took up an interest in that one, due to various theoretical ramifications that would be involved in the outcome.  What’s so disconcerting about the whole deal was that one research group would get positive results while another got negative ones.  It still is not resolved, and I have a friend at UCSD, a pre-eminent biologist, who swears that it’s all whooey.  So who’s right? This is why I take principles derived solely from empirical evidence with a grain of salt.  Physics looks for ultimate causes that explain phenomena and which also allow correct predictions to be made.  Medicine is a long, long way from that. In my copy of the UCSD Medical School catalog, they tell the prospective med students that 20 years after graduating, one half of what they will have taught them will be found to be false. The only problem, they say, is that presently no one knows which half it is. This is why when doctors talk, they commonly qualify what they say with words like "it is thought to be that…" or "we believe that.." They realize that half of what they are saying will eventually be scrapped.  Dr. Rolla on the diabetes mailing list talks as well as writes like this. BUT NOT YOU, BIGGS!  I have never seen anyone in the profession go around like you do spouting off everything about medicine like it was God’s own incontrovertible law. This is but one more reason why I seriously doubt that you are a real doctor.  You talk more like a computer nerd, with his bivalent, go-no-go logic, where everything is known with absolute certainty to be either true or false. You would do much better if you would shed a little of your hubris and realize that you are talking about medicine and that half of what you say (in your case, at least half) is baloney and that you are representing and spreading a great deal of nonsense as hard fact. Michel Martin Mickey, Batting a thousand here lately. Apparently you haven’t kept up with the literature from the last 5 or 6 years. Several large, and statistically powerful, studies have all shown no detectable cardiovascular benefit from Vitamin E. Sure, we all heard in the 1980’s about Vitamin E’s benefits. That was mostly theory, and there was no clinical evidence. The evidence is now in, and Vitamin E essentially does nothing to prevent heart attack or stroke. Old theories die hard, don’t they ? There is also some evidence accumulating that more than 800 IU of Vitamin E may adversely impact glucose control. So if want to buy Vitamin E, then use 800 IU per day or less. BTW, since you asked, most of us assume that for *medical* journals you would use one of the *medical* libraries.  Duh ! UCSD has two.There’s one at the old University Hospital on Arbor , and one at the med school at Gilman & Myers. You pick. There’s one at the VA Hospital too, but it’s not open to the public. These are recent articles from the most respected journals in their fields. Look at: N Engl J Med 2000 Jan 20;342(3):154-60  (Lead articles for that issue – the HOPE trial) "Vitamin E supplementation and cardiovascular events in high-risk patients." The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Investigators. BACKGROUND: Observational and experimental studies suggest that the amount of vitamin E ingested in food and in supplements is associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease and atherosclerosis. RESULTS: A total of 772 of the 4761 patients assigned to vitamin E (16.2 percent) and 739 of the 4780 assigned to placebo (15.5 percent) had a primary outcome event (relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.16; P=0.33). There were no significant differences in the numbers of deaths from cardiovascular causes (342 of those assigned to vitamin E vs. 328 of those assigned to placebo; relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.22), myocardial infarction (532 vs. 524; relative risk, 1.02; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.15), or stroke (209 vs. 180; relative risk, 1.17; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.42). There were also no significant differences in the incidence of secondary cardiovascular outcomes or in death from any cause. There were no significant adverse effects of vitamin E. CONCLUSIONS: In patients at high risk for cardiovascular events, treatment with vitamin E for a mean of 4.5 years had no apparent effect on cardiovascular outcomes. Lancet 2001 Jan 13;357(9250):89-95 Low-dose aspirin and vitamin E in people at cardiovascular risk: a randomised trial in general practice. Collaborative Group of the Primary Prevention Project. BACKGROUND: In addition to the treatment of specific cardiovascular risk factors, intervention which interferes with the general mechanisms of atherosclerosis could further reduce the incidence of cardiovascular events. We aimed to investigate in general practice the efficacy of antiplatelets and antioxidants in primary prevention of cardiovascular events in people with one or more major cardiovascular risk factors. RESULTS …Vitamin E showed no effect on any prespecified endpoint. Analyses were by intention-to-treat. INTERPRETATION: In women and men at risk of having a cardiovascular event because of the presence of at least one major risk factor, low-dose aspirin given in addition to treatment of specific risk factors contributes an additional preventive effect, with an acceptable safety profile. The results on vitamin E’s cardiovascular primary preventive efficacy are not conclusive per se, although our results are consistent with the negative results of other large published trials on secondary prevention Ann Intern Med 1999 Jun 15;130(12):963-70 Relation of consumption of vitamin E, vitamin C, and carotenoids to risk for stroke among men in the United States. BACKGROUND: Antioxidants increase the resistance of low-density lipoprotein to oxidation and may thereby reduce risk for atherosclerosis. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether intake of vitamin E, vitamin C, or carotenoids predict risk for total or ischemic stroke. DESIGN: Prospective observational study. CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin E and vitamin C supplements and specific carotenoids did not seem to substantially reduce risk for stroke in this cohort. Modest effects, however, cannot be excluded William C Biggs, MD

Response:

Well, you know my take on a study like that – another fiber fiasco There is no way to get adequate control of enough factors to make any but the simplest diet study worth the paper it is printed on. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Herman, One paradox is we see better results from a DIET full of antioxidant foods, than we see from PILLS of antioxidants. So if you eat plenty of fresh fruits & vegetables, and avoid processed foods, avoid fatty and fried foods, people seem to do better. Part of the problem is that lab rats don’t like fruits and vegetables as much. Rat food pellets seem just fine to them. We need more research in real people. There is a study underway in women who have survived breast cancer, and are now eating healthy foods. We’ll see how that turns out. William C Biggs, MD

Response:

BUT NOT YOU, BIGGS!  I have never seen anyone in the profession go around like you do spouting off everything about medicine like it was God’s own incontrovertible law. This is but one more reason why I seriously doubt that you are a real doctor.

    Ahem.  Let us all get our facts correct.  I went to http://www.docboard.org, and clicked on the great State of Texas, home of George Dubya Bush, and also of William C. Biggs, M.D.  The following was found on that site. Licensee Name                                                WILLIAM CURTIS BIGGS                            License Status                                                ACTIVE                            License Number                                                G3157                            License Type                                                MD                            Address                                                1900 COULTER                            City State Zip                                                AMARILLO TX 79106                            Birthdate                                                16 NOV 1956                            Original License Date                                                27 FEB 1983                            License Expiration Date                                                31 AUG 2001                            Education                                                UNIV OF TEXAS, SOUTHWESTERN MED SCH, DALLAS                            Specialty1                                                INTERNAL MEDICINE                            Specialty2                                                DIABETES                                                Board Actions: No information on file                                                Above accurate as of: 01 JUN 2001     It would seem extremely unlikely that the William C Biggs, MD, is any other than the above mentioned William C. Biggs, M.D.  I can’t guarantee that he always speaks The Eternal Truth, but, by golly, he is a real doctor, and he does specialize in diabetes.

Response:

Herman, One paradox is we see better results from a DIET full of antioxidant foods, than we see from PILLS of antioxidants. So if you eat plenty of fresh fruits & vegetables, and avoid processed foods, avoid fatty and fried foods, people seem to do better. Part of the problem is that lab rats don’t like fruits and vegetables as much. Rat food pellets seem just fine to them. We need more research in real people. There is a study underway in women who have survived breast cancer, and are now eating healthy foods. We’ll see how that turns out. William C Biggs, MD

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – In "The American Journal of Cardiology" there was a survey where 44% of 181 American cardiologists responding reported taking supplements – vitamin E, vitamin C, and/or beta carotene – yet only 37% endorsed patient usage. Apparently 7% think their urine is worth the money, but ours isn’t Only apparently. Those 7% were by far the smartest among those who were surveyed. There is at least one medical condition that contraindicates the taking of Vitamin E, and that is essential hypertension (high blood pressure). If you don’t believe it, my father didn’t either.  He went on vitamin E, and his blood pressure (already being treated) went through the roof. It never went back to the lowish level of severity it originally was, as he had to be permantently moved onto more aggressive medication. (After this problem started, we managed to find this fact in the medical literature.) I’m surprised that they could get 37% of those doctors to recommend Vitamin E with no qualification.  They just weren’t thinking.  This is just about what you would expect from doctors.  Please remember that my grandfather was a highly successful physician and surgeon, way ahead of his colleagues at all times.

Like son, like father eh. He was said to have never made a single false diagnosis during his 35-year career.

He apparently made a pretty poor choice of therapy for himself though, using Vit E. But that’s not as great as it would seem.

Oh, it seems great does it? Maybe I’m not as easily impressed as you.  True, he was a genius in many other ways as well (a child prodigy concert pianist and a classical scholar, to name two),

It must’ve been a BITCH trying to live up to that sort of standard. It’s no wonder you didn’t follow in dads footsteps and go into medicine. Living in the shadow of dad ALL your life could have had a very odd effect on you. Who knows, you may even have developed delusions of grandeur, but luckily, you chose another path and thus survived as a well balanced individual. Balanced on a knife edge by all accounts, but still.. but look at who he had to compete with.

And look at what he spawned. I was talked out of going to medical school, and pointed towards physics.  It took me years to realize that I had made the right choice.

WHO made the choice?  It’s not the science of medicine itself (it has always fascinated me)–it’s the bozos you meet in the profession.

And not only in the medical profession eh Mickey. (Oh how I’ve left you an opening there) Beav

Response:

From Guy Williams In the late 1950’s ther was a "doctor show" on a Cincinnati, Ohio TV station that had some senior doctors answering questions. The eternal question of the value of vitamins was discussed.  The consensus was unless there was a deficiency of a vitamin or other essential items that added vitamins over a balanced diet were a waste of money.  The human body had adjusted to the environment over the eons. They agreed that our urine was indeed expensive since that is where the surplus input ended up.

Quite a large number of medical people believe that "megadoses" of vitamin E are beneficial.  It is almost impossible to get these doses from food, even eating huge quantities of the fats which are high in this. From the standpoint of "natural" survival, we are almost irrelevant by age 50, if not before.  Type 2 diabetes is of very little consequence for such survival. There are even nutrients for which "good" diets can be deficient.  MUCH research is needed, and it is unlikely to be funded by those who cannot see the need for good basic research. — This address is for information only.  I do not claim that these views are those of the Statistics Department or of Purdue University. Herman Rubin, Dept. of Statistics, Purdue Univ., West Lafayette IN47907-1399

Response:

<snip You are relying on empirical data for your position, which may or may not be valid.  The reason I would go to the trouble of taking Vitamin E is the fact that there is a very plausible explanation of Vitamin E’s activity as an anti-oxidant. I’m more impressed by causes and effects–you are a slavish follower of statistical studies.  Those are rarely if ever used in the physical sciences.  So that’s why you’re in medicine, and I’m in physics and chemistry.

Actually, I read a blurb in a magazine recently that said new evidence has turned up that Vitamin E is NOT an anti-oxidant.  Can’t remember which magazine that was though. <snip — Type 2 http://www.redshift.com/~juliebove/

Response:

Mickey, I’m back from yet another meeting..   Wow, long days here. You would have appreciated the symposium today on antioxidants. They detailed the difficulties in this field. I might add that all of the speakers were pro-antioxidant therapy. The best presentation was by Dr.Alicia Jenkins. None of the in vivo assays used to assess oxidative stress is very reliable. So while the test tube studies predict that Vitamin E should reduce oxidative stress, it hasn’t ever been shown in living humans. In fact, the studies in humans were also a disappoitment for them, in that the assays showed no benefit to Vitamin E therapy. Their explanation is that their assays are too crude. For instance, the look at LDL oxidation. Oxidized LDL is theorized to be particularly atherogenic. But in diabetes, oxidized LDL levels were completely normal. In fact, it appeared that in diabetes LDL is harder to oxidize in diabetics than in non diabetics. One possible benefit of Vitamin C is that at high doses it might inhibit Protein Kinase C (PKC) .  This might reduce retinopathy or neuropathy. Lilly has a new PKC inhibitor in Phase 3 trials now, and we will see if a specific inhibitor reduces complications. If so, high dose Vitamin E might then be warranted. Dr. Jenkins, although her life’s work is Vitamin E, doesn’t recommend Vitamin E at this point. She referred the conference to the ADA Concensus Statement , which you can see at http://www.diabetes.org/clinicalrecommendations/Supplement101/S44.htm ) . To summarize "MICRONUTRIENTS: VITAMINS AND MINERALS – When dietary intake is adequate, there is generally no need for additional vitamin and mineral supplementation for the majority of people with diabetes. Although there are theoretical reasons to supplement with antioxidants, there is little confirmatory evidence at present that such therapy has any benefits. " IMHO, Vitamin E is cheap, hasn’t hurt anyone at the 400 – 800 IU range, and thus I don’t take anybody off it who wants it. OTOH, I don’t want anybody to have the misconception that Vitamin E is a miracle drug.  If it has any benefit, researchers are having a hard time confirming it. There *are* worthwhile supplements. Folic acid is also cheap, and has significant reduction of coronary events. Aspirin is cheap, and as long as you don’t have stomach problems or bleeding problems, should be considered for stroke and heart attack reduction.   Even wine has more benefits demonstrated than Vitamin E. Keeping your BP below 130 and your LDL cholesterol below 100 will do wonders as well. We are seeing 40+% reductions in coronary disease when cholesterol is lowered , and BP is below 130. BTW, 80% of diabetes patients die from cardiovascular events. So the big push is to prevent that. On the list of available tools, Vitamin E is is about at the bottom of the prevention list. Until somebody shows it has some positive effects, it will probably stay there. Cheers, William C Biggs

Response:

Mickey, I know Arturo quite well, and worked with him for approx 3 years at Deaconess in Boston. We are actually quite similar in temperment. You post was again amusing as far as not having an open mind. I give you studies from 1999 to 2001, and my ideas are old ? Like I said, old theories die hard, particularly for Mickey. I have to run, but I’ll share some of today’s seminar "Controversies in Free Radical Related Diabetes Complications and Vitamin E" given by Alicia Jenkins, MD. I do have an open mind. I also demand good evidence for a statement. Otherwise, my mind wouldn’t be open. So if you have good evidence, I’ll believe you. Dr Jenkins was able to review all the cellular and animal data, and did mention the slew of negative human studies on the subject.  HOPE, ATBC, MicroHOPE, GISSI, HATS, SECURE to name but a few.  She likes Vitamin E, though. If you’re interested I can tell you why. Cheers, William C Biggs, MD

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – You seem to fail to understand that proving a negative can be very difficult.  Just because the studies you list below failed, they don’t have as much significance as you might think.  One difficulty among many in these kinds of experiments is selecting the two groups of people (the control vs those being tested) so as to be equivalent.  To a non-researcher like yourself, the problem seems trivial.  But actually, this is one of the worst stumbling blocks in this type of research study. You are relying on empirical data for your position, which may or may not be valid.  The reason I would go to the trouble of taking Vitamin E is the fact that there is a very plausible explanation of Vitamin E’s activity as an anti-oxidant. I’m more impressed by causes and effects–you are a slavish follower of statistical studies.  Those are rarely if ever used in the physical sciences.  So that’s why you’re in medicine, and I’m in physics and chemistry. Were you following that fiasco that involved the research trying to establish whether or not substances in the mouth can be absorbed directly there into the bloodstream?  I took up an interest in that one, due to various theoretical ramifications that would be involved in the outcome.  What’s so disconcerting about the whole deal was that one research group would get positive results while another got negative ones.  It still is not resolved, and I have a friend at UCSD, a pre-eminent biologist, who swears that it’s all whooey.  So who’s right? This is why I take principles derived solely from empirical evidence with a grain of salt.  Physics looks for ultimate causes that explain phenomena and which also allow correct predictions to be made.  Medicine is a long, long way from that. In my copy of the UCSD Medical School catalog, they tell the prospective med students that 20 years after graduating, one half of what they will have taught them will be found to be false. The only problem, they say, is that presently no one knows which half it is. This is why when doctors talk, they commonly qualify what they say with words like "it is thought to be that…" or "we believe that.." They realize that half of what they are saying will eventually be scrapped.  Dr. Rolla on the diabetes mailing list talks as well as writes like this. BUT NOT YOU, BIGGS!  I have never seen anyone in the profession go around like you do spouting off everything about medicine like it was God’s own incontrovertible law. This is but one more reason why I seriously doubt that you are a real doctor.  You talk more like a computer nerd, with his bivalent, go-no-go logic, where everything is known with absolute certainty to be either true or false. You would do much better if you would shed a little of your hubris and realize that you are talking about medicine and that half of what you say (in your case, at least half) is baloney and that you are representing and spreading a great deal of nonsense as hard fact. Michel Martin Mickey, Batting a thousand here lately. Apparently you haven’t kept up with the literature from the last 5 or 6 years. Several large, and statistically powerful, studies have all shown no detectable cardiovascular benefit from Vitamin E. Sure, we all heard in the 1980’s about Vitamin E’s benefits. That was mostly theory, and there was no clinical evidence. The evidence is now in, and Vitamin E essentially does nothing to prevent heart attack or stroke. Old theories die hard, don’t they ? There is also some evidence accumulating that more than 800 IU of Vitamin E may adversely impact glucose control. So if want to buy Vitamin E, then use 800 IU per day or less. BTW, since you asked, most of us assume that for *medical* journals you would use one of the *medical* libraries.  Duh ! UCSD has two.There’s one at the old University Hospital on Arbor , and one at the med school at Gilman & Myers. You pick. There’s one at the VA Hospital too, but it’s not open to the public. These are recent articles from the most respected journals in their fields. Look at: N Engl J Med 2000 Jan 20;342(3):154-60  (Lead articles for that issue – the HOPE trial) "Vitamin E supplementation and cardiovascular events in high-risk patients." The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Investigators. BACKGROUND: Observational and experimental studies suggest that the amount of vitamin E ingested in food and in supplements is associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease and atherosclerosis. RESULTS: A total of 772 of the 4761 patients assigned to vitamin E (16.2 percent) and 739 of the 4780 assigned to placebo (15.5 percent) had a primary outcome event (relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.16; P=0.33). There were no significant differences in the numbers of deaths from cardiovascular causes (342 of those assigned to vitamin E vs. 328 of those assigned to placebo; relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.22), myocardial infarction (532 vs. 524; relative risk, 1.02; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.15), or stroke (209 vs. 180; relative risk, 1.17; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.42). There were also no significant differences in the incidence of secondary cardiovascular outcomes or in death from any cause. There were no significant adverse effects of vitamin E. CONCLUSIONS: In patients at high risk for cardiovascular events, treatment with vitamin E for a mean of 4.5 years had no apparent effect on cardiovascular outcomes. Lancet 2001 Jan 13;357(9250):89-95 Low-dose aspirin and vitamin E in people at cardiovascular risk: a randomised trial in general practice. Collaborative Group of the Primary Prevention Project. BACKGROUND: In addition to the treatment of specific cardiovascular risk factors, intervention which interferes with the general mechanisms of atherosclerosis could further reduce the incidence of cardiovascular events. We aimed to investigate in general practice the efficacy of antiplatelets and antioxidants in primary prevention of cardiovascular events in people with one or more major cardiovascular risk factors. RESULTS …Vitamin E showed no effect on any prespecified endpoint. Analyses were by intention-to-treat. INTERPRETATION: In women and men at risk of having a cardiovascular event because of the presence of at least one major risk factor, low-dose aspirin given in addition to treatment of specific risk factors contributes an additional preventive effect, with an acceptable safety profile. The results on vitamin E’s cardiovascular primary preventive efficacy are not conclusive per se, although our results are consistent with the negative results of other large published trials on secondary prevention Ann Intern Med 1999 Jun 15;130(12):963-70 Relation of consumption of vitamin E, vitamin C, and carotenoids to risk for stroke among men in the United States. BACKGROUND: Antioxidants increase the resistance of low-density lipoprotein to oxidation and may thereby reduce risk for atherosclerosis. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether intake of vitamin E, vitamin C, or carotenoids predict risk for total or ischemic stroke. DESIGN: Prospective observational study. CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin E and vitamin C supplements and specific carotenoids did not seem to substantially reduce risk for stroke in this cohort. Modest effects, however, cannot be excluded William C Biggs, MD

Response:

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -From Guy Williams In the late 1950’s ther was a "doctor show" on a Cincinnati, Ohio TV station that had some senior doctors answering questions. The eternal question of the value of vitamins was discussed.  The consensus was unless there was a deficiency of a vitamin or other essential items that added vitamins over a balanced diet were a waste of money.  The human body had adjusted to the environment over the eons. They agreed that our urine was indeed expensive since that is where the surplus input ended up. If we enter an abnormal situation such as sailors at sea or people that evolved in a coastal setting and living elsewhere then we may encounter a different environment and develop a problem. I can think of goiter is the midwest,  beri beri in the South as two examples of this type of deficiency. The real needs have been taken care of in our food supply.  Milk and bread have proper additives.  People can still harm them selves by skewed diets. Anything that results in profit for someone will be touted as a miracle. I think it is acceptable to take a GOOD multiple vitamin just in case.  some of the crap that is pushed is really useless.  I can think of calcium as a need of special forms will work better.   A lot of the touted items are only effective as the traditional sugar pill.

In "The American Journal of Cardiology" there was a survey where 44% of 181 American cardiologists responding reported taking supplements – vitamin E, vitamin C, and/or beta carotene – yet only 37% endorsed patient usage. Apparently 7% think their urine is worth the money, but ours isn’t Janet El, Type 2 dx 11/00 Glucophage 1500

Response:

In "The American Journal of Cardiology" there was a survey where 44% of 181 American cardiologists responding reported taking supplements – vitamin E, vitamin C, and/or beta carotene – yet only 37% endorsed patient usage. Apparently 7% think their urine is worth the money, but ours isn’t

Only apparently. Those 7% were by far the smartest among those who were surveyed. There is at least one medical condition that contraindicates the taking of Vitamin E, and that is essential hypertension (high blood pressure). If you don’t believe it, my father didn’t either.  He went on vitamin E, and his blood pressure (already being treated) went through the roof. It never went back to the lowish level of severity it originally was, as he had to be permantently moved onto more aggressive medication. (After this problem started, we managed to find this fact in the medical literature.) I’m surprised that they could get 37% of those doctors to recommend Vitamin E with no qualification.  They just weren’t thinking.  This is just about what you would expect from doctors.  Please remember that my grandfather was a highly successful physician and surgeon, way ahead of his colleagues at all times.  He was said to have never made a single false diagnosis during his 35-year career.  But that’s not as great as it would seem.  True, he was a genius in many other ways as well (a child prodigy concert pianist and a classical scholar, to name two), but look at who he had to compete with. I was talked out of going to medical school, and pointed towards physics.  It took me years to realize that I had made the right choice.  It’s not the science of medicine itself (it has always fascinated me)–it’s the bozos you meet in the profession. Michel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Janet El, Type 2 dx 11/00 Glucophage 1500

Response:

You seem to fail to understand that proving a negative can be very difficult.  Just because the studies you list below failed, they don’t have as much significance as you might think.  One difficulty among many in these kinds of experiments is selecting the two groups of people (the control vs those being tested) so as to be equivalent.  To a non-researcher like yourself, the problem seems trivial.  But actually, this is one of the worst stumbling blocks in this type of research study. You are relying on empirical data for your position, which may or may not be valid.  The reason I would go to the trouble of taking Vitamin E is the fact that there is a very plausible explanation of Vitamin E’s activity as an anti-oxidant. I’m more impressed by causes and effects–you are a slavish follower of statistical studies.  Those are rarely if ever used in the physical sciences.  So that’s why you’re in medicine, and I’m in physics and chemistry. Were you following that fiasco that involved the research trying to establish whether or not substances in the mouth can be absorbed directly there into the bloodstream?  I took up an interest in that one, due to various theoretical ramifications that would be involved in the outcome.  What’s so disconcerting about the whole deal was that one research group would get positive results while another got negative ones.  It still is not resolved, and I have a friend at UCSD, a pre-eminent biologist, who swears that it’s all whooey.  So who’s right? This is why I take principles derived solely from empirical evidence with a grain of salt.  Physics looks for ultimate causes that explain phenomena and which also allow correct predictions to be made.  Medicine is a long, long way from that. In my copy of the UCSD Medical School catalog, they tell the prospective med students that 20 years after graduating, one half of what they will have taught them will be found to be false. The only problem, they say, is that presently no one knows which half it is. This is why when doctors talk, they commonly qualify what they say with words like "it is thought to be that…" or "we believe that.." They realize that half of what they are saying will eventually be scrapped.  Dr. Rolla on the diabetes mailing list talks as well as writes like this. BUT NOT YOU, BIGGS!  I have never seen anyone in the profession go around like you do spouting off everything about medicine like it was God’s own incontrovertible law. This is but one more reason why I seriously doubt that you are a real doctor.  You talk more like a computer nerd, with his bivalent, go-no-go logic, where everything is known with absolute certainty to be either true or false. You would do much better if you would shed a little of your hubris and realize that you are talking about medicine and that half of what you say (in your case, at least half) is baloney and that you are representing and spreading a great deal of nonsense as hard fact. Michel Martin – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – Mickey, Batting a thousand here lately. Apparently you haven’t kept up with the literature from the last 5 or 6 years. Several large, and statistically powerful, studies have all shown no detectable cardiovascular benefit from Vitamin E. Sure, we all heard in the 1980’s about Vitamin E’s benefits. That was mostly theory, and there was no clinical evidence. The evidence is now in, and Vitamin E essentially does nothing to prevent heart attack or stroke. Old theories die hard, don’t they ? There is also some evidence accumulating that more than 800 IU of Vitamin E may adversely impact glucose control. So if want to buy Vitamin E, then use 800 IU per day or less. BTW, since you asked, most of us assume that for *medical* journals you would use one of the *medical* libraries.  Duh ! UCSD has two.There’s one at the old University Hospital on Arbor , and one at the med school at Gilman & Myers. You pick. There’s one at the VA Hospital too, but it’s not open to the public. These are recent articles from the most respected journals in their fields. Look at: N Engl J Med 2000 Jan 20;342(3):154-60  (Lead articles for that issue – the HOPE trial) "Vitamin E supplementation and cardiovascular events in high-risk patients." The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Investigators. BACKGROUND: Observational and experimental studies suggest that the amount of vitamin E ingested in food and in supplements is associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease and atherosclerosis. RESULTS: A total of 772 of the 4761 patients assigned to vitamin E (16.2 percent) and 739 of the 4780 assigned to placebo (15.5 percent) had a primary outcome event (relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.16; P=0.33). There were no significant differences in the numbers of deaths from cardiovascular causes (342 of those assigned to vitamin E vs. 328 of those assigned to placebo; relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.22), myocardial infarction (532 vs. 524; relative risk, 1.02; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.15), or stroke (209 vs. 180; relative risk, 1.17; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.42). There were also no significant differences in the incidence of secondary cardiovascular outcomes or in death from any cause. There were no significant adverse effects of vitamin E. CONCLUSIONS: In patients at high risk for cardiovascular events, treatment with vitamin E for a mean of 4.5 years had no apparent effect on cardiovascular outcomes. Lancet 2001 Jan 13;357(9250):89-95 Low-dose aspirin and vitamin E in people at cardiovascular risk: a randomised trial in general practice. Collaborative Group of the Primary Prevention Project. BACKGROUND: In addition to the treatment of specific cardiovascular risk factors, intervention which interferes with the general mechanisms of atherosclerosis could further reduce the incidence of cardiovascular events. We aimed to investigate in general practice the efficacy of antiplatelets and antioxidants in primary prevention of cardiovascular events in people with one or more major cardiovascular risk factors. RESULTS …Vitamin E showed no effect on any prespecified endpoint. Analyses were by intention-to-treat. INTERPRETATION: In women and men at risk of having a cardiovascular event because of the presence of at least one major risk factor, low-dose aspirin given in addition to treatment of specific risk factors contributes an additional preventive effect, with an acceptable safety profile. The results on vitamin E’s cardiovascular primary preventive efficacy are not conclusive per se, although our results are consistent with the negative results of other large published trials on secondary prevention Ann Intern Med 1999 Jun 15;130(12):963-70 Relation of consumption of vitamin E, vitamin C, and carotenoids to risk for stroke among men in the United States. BACKGROUND: Antioxidants increase the resistance of low-density lipoprotein to oxidation and may thereby reduce risk for atherosclerosis. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether intake of vitamin E, vitamin C, or carotenoids predict risk for total or ischemic stroke. DESIGN: Prospective observational study. CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin E and vitamin C supplements and specific carotenoids did not seem to substantially reduce risk for stroke in this cohort. Modest effects, however, cannot be excluded William C Biggs, MD

Response:

Mickey, Batting a thousand here lately. Apparently you haven’t kept up with the literature from the last 5 or 6 years. Several large, and statistically powerful, studies have all shown no detectable cardiovascular benefit from Vitamin E. Sure, we all heard in the 1980’s about Vitamin E’s benefits. That was mostly theory, and there was no clinical evidence. The evidence is now in, and Vitamin E essentially does nothing to prevent heart attack or stroke. Old theories die hard, don’t they ? There is also some evidence accumulating that more than 800 IU of Vitamin E may adversely impact glucose control. So if want to buy Vitamin E, then use 800 IU per day or less. BTW, since you asked, most of us assume that for *medical* journals you would use one of the *medical* libraries.  Duh ! UCSD has two.There’s one at the old University Hospital on Arbor , and one at the med school at Gilman & Myers. You pick. There’s one at the VA Hospital too, but it’s not open to the public. These are recent articles from the most respected journals in their fields. Look at: N Engl J Med 2000 Jan 20;342(3):154-60  (Lead articles for that issue – the HOPE trial) "Vitamin E supplementation and cardiovascular events in high-risk patients." The Heart Outcomes Prevention Evaluation Study Investigators. BACKGROUND: Observational and experimental studies suggest that the amount of vitamin E ingested in food and in supplements is associated with a lower risk of coronary heart disease and atherosclerosis. RESULTS: A total of 772 of the 4761 patients assigned to vitamin E (16.2 percent) and 739 of the 4780 assigned to placebo (15.5 percent) had a primary outcome event (relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.16; P=0.33). There were no significant differences in the numbers of deaths from cardiovascular causes (342 of those assigned to vitamin E vs. 328 of those assigned to placebo; relative risk, 1.05; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.22), myocardial infarction (532 vs. 524; relative risk, 1.02; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.90 to 1.15), or stroke (209 vs. 180; relative risk, 1.17; 95 percent confidence interval, 0.95 to 1.42). There were also no significant differences in the incidence of secondary cardiovascular outcomes or in death from any cause. There were no significant adverse effects of vitamin E. CONCLUSIONS: In patients at high risk for cardiovascular events, treatment with vitamin E for a mean of 4.5 years had no apparent effect on cardiovascular outcomes. Lancet 2001 Jan 13;357(9250):89-95 Low-dose aspirin and vitamin E in people at cardiovascular risk: a randomised trial in general practice. Collaborative Group of the Primary Prevention Project. BACKGROUND: In addition to the treatment of specific cardiovascular risk factors, intervention which interferes with the general mechanisms of atherosclerosis could further reduce the incidence of cardiovascular events. We aimed to investigate in general practice the efficacy of antiplatelets and antioxidants in primary prevention of cardiovascular events in people with one or more major cardiovascular risk factors. RESULTS …Vitamin E showed no effect on any prespecified endpoint. Analyses were by intention-to-treat. INTERPRETATION: In women and men at risk of having a cardiovascular event because of the presence of at least one major risk factor, low-dose aspirin given in addition to treatment of specific risk factors contributes an additional preventive effect, with an acceptable safety profile. The results on vitamin E’s cardiovascular primary preventive efficacy are not conclusive per se, although our results are consistent with the negative results of other large published trials on secondary prevention Ann Intern Med 1999 Jun 15;130(12):963-70 Relation of consumption of vitamin E, vitamin C, and carotenoids to risk for stroke among men in the United States. BACKGROUND: Antioxidants increase the resistance of low-density lipoprotein to oxidation and may thereby reduce risk for atherosclerosis. OBJECTIVE: To determine whether intake of vitamin E, vitamin C, or carotenoids predict risk for total or ischemic stroke. DESIGN: Prospective observational study. CONCLUSIONS: Vitamin E and vitamin C supplements and specific carotenoids did not seem to substantially reduce risk for stroke in this cohort. Modest effects, however, cannot be excluded William C Biggs, MD

Response:

Nice post. There was a time (especially 1950’s) when this was the best advice available. But since then, there have been discoveries made about what *certain* of the vitamins can do for you, and these were carried out as part of biomedical research, not imaginary benefits touted by vitamin salespeople. Case in point.  In the 1970’s, it was discovered that what until then had been a mystery (the role or need for vitamin E, or d-alpha tocopheryl) was an antioxidant. In the body, there are side reactions of an oxidation sort that, among other things, destroy proteins.  And when enough of this takes place with the protein that make up the heart muscles, you can guess the outcome. So, study after study was made down the years until the present, establishing that people who took up to 10 times MDR of Vitamin E (which is considered to be 30 I.U. per day) suffered heart attacks at a greatly reduced rate.  It seems that anything over that 10X amount does not add any additional benefit. I have been taking Vitamin E since 1976.  I started out cautionsly on 100 I.U. per day, then moved to 200 I.U. when they no longer sold it in 100’s.  A few years ago, when I learned of the information in the last paragraph, I moved up to 400 I.U. per day. One of the interesting things about Vitamin E is its lack of ubiquity.  Outside of plant leaves (like lettuce), wheat germ oil (who eats that?), and milk (I drink non-fat milk), there is hardly enough of it in the diet to reach that figure of 30 I.U. daily. Let’s talk about vitamin C (ascorbic acid).  Linus Pauling started it all when he tried to convince the world that Vitamin C could cure the common cold.  He was way shy of the mark on that one, but biomedical studies were made which proved that Vitamin C could raise people’s resistance to getting colds in the first place.  The optimum amount appears to be 5 times MDR, which is 40 mg per day.  Once I found all this out, I went on 250 mg of it per day.  I used to catch at least one cold per winter season, often more.  But I haven’t had a cold in 5 years.  My resistance to cold air and other people’s colds is now simply excellent. However, and I just heard this one in the local NBC TV news, that large amounts of vitamin C can damage a person’s DNA, which can result in cancer.  My father’s best friend’s wife was a megavitamin freak, who used to take 2 grams of the stuff a day (2000 mg). She died at only 60 from ovarian cancer.  She took all this stuff so she could live forever.  It’s no great feat making it to 60, even while suffering from outright vitamin deficiency.  So more is not necessarily better. And last but no least, consider Vitamin A (retinol).  If people ingest excessive quantities of this, the skin on the hands and feet start growing at a tremendous rate, eventually  peeling off. This was discovered in World War II when the US Army Air Corps tried giving pilots massive amounts of Vitamin A in the hope of improving their night vision above normal.  But their night vision never improved, and all they got was the peeling skin. Because of this characteristic, the FDA has considered at times putting Vitamin A on the list of substances requiring a prescription, but they have never done this. However, Vitamin A has found a niche in making anti-wrinkle creams. When applied directly to the skin, it can cause the skin at the bottom of a wrinkle to grow, although this takes place at a rate that is for some people frustratingly slow.  In addition, such a cream needs to have some vitamin E as well to act as a sunscreen, since the newly formed skin is particular prone to sunburn.  Not all retinol creams have this, so it is worth looking for the word "tocopheryl" on the list of ingredients.  Also, creams that state the number of international units of Vitamin A (retinol) are highly preferable, since those that don’t give this figure may not have enough to be clinically effective. Finally, about the single horse pill that provides a little bit of everything, including some minerals.  When a person is young and has a rich and varied died, these are not particularly important.  But, once a person is in middle age, things change dramatically.  As an example, I now eat far less than one-half what I did when I was 20, and I’m still just as active.  I eat like a bird, and so still weigh what I did as a teenager.  However, if I had to eat all the foods that nutritionists say I must, and in the amounts they prescribe, I would be as fat as a hog. No thanks.  I’m now taking the horse pill every day.  It will protect me, I believe, no matter how skewed my diet may become over a short period. To summarize, I don’t think it’s possible any longer to make blanket statements about vitamins in general.  Each has to be studied and considered individually.  And above all else, some of these can become toxic when taken in excessive quantities, although I know that there are people who hottly deny this. Michel – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – From Guy Williams In the late 1950’s ther was a "doctor show" on a Cincinnati, Ohio TV station that had some senior doctors answering questions. The eternal question of the value of vitamins was discussed.  The consensus was unless there was a deficiency of a vitamin or other essential items that added vitamins over a balanced diet were a waste of money.  The human body had adjusted to the environment over the eons. They agreed that our urine was indeed expensive since that is where the surplus input ended up. If we enter an abnormal situation such as sailors at sea or people that evolved in a coastal setting and living elsewhere then we may encounter  a different environment and develop a problem. I can think of goiter is the midwest,  beri beri in the South as two examples of this type of deficiency. The real needs have been taken care of in our food supply.  Milk and bread have proper additives.  People can still harm them selves by skewed diets. Anything that results in profit for someone will be touted as a miracle. I think it is acceptable to take a GOOD multiple vitamin just in case.  some of the crap that is pushed is really useless.  I can think of calcium as a need of special forms will work better. A lot of the touted items are only effective as the traditional sugar pill.

Response:

From Guy Williams In the late 1950’s ther was a "doctor show" on a Cincinnati, Ohio TV station that had some senior doctors answering questions. The eternal question of the value of vitamins was discussed.  The consensus was unless there was a deficiency of a vitamin or other essential items that added vitamins over a balanced diet were a waste of money.  The human body had adjusted to the environment over the eons. They agreed that our urine was indeed expensive since that is where the surplus input ended up. If we enter an abnormal situation such as sailors at sea or people that evolved in a coastal setting and living elsewhere then we may encounter  a different environment and develop a problem. I can think of goiter is the midwest,  beri beri in the South as two examples of this type of deficiency. The real needs have been taken care of in our food supply.  Milk and bread have proper additives.  People can still harm them selves by skewed diets. Anything that results in profit for someone will be touted as a miracle. I think it is acceptable to take a GOOD multiple vitamin just in case.  some of the crap that is pushed is really useless.  I can think of calcium as a need of special forms will work better.   A lot of the touted items are only effective as the traditional sugar pill.

Response:

so every time i go to NYC somehow i see trisha

Question:

but i still don’t have any idea who she is. she just sees me and tells me about it later. — -tom- Sup you homos?

Response:

but i still don’t have any idea who she is. she just sees me and tells me about it later. — -tom- Sup you homos?

I see her all the time in Louisiana. I love her perky AB cups. I try and tell her I love her just the way she is, but she won’t listen. And in statistics, there often is no TRUEZERO! — Re: USENET ABUSE : Cascade attempt [#1411200] – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – To: By post to alt.flame,alt.fan.karl-malden.nose,alt.hackers.malicious and alt.troll this abuser is trying to start a cascade on the Linux newsgroups. Dear MP3.com Artist, It has come to our attention (see below) that you have been either sending unsolicited email (Spam) or posting off-topic messages in Newsgroups, in an attempt to drive traffic to your page at MP3.com. This sort of activity is unacceptable, and is even illegal in many jurisdictions. We are implicated as benefiting from traffic you might get through the use of these methods, so we must require that you cease these activities.

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Response:

BREAST SURGEON VS. GENERAL SURGEON

Question:

Wondering about the differences between the two.  If u had a breast lump and needed it checked out which would you go for? — http://more.at/easy – Make the most of your time = money! http://start.at/carra –  My first web page http://www.studynow.com – Medical Bookstore Share what you know. Learn what you don’t.

Response:

Wondering about the differences between the two.  If u had a breast lump and needed it checked out which would you go for?

I’d find the best oncologist I could locate and then accept his recommendations for a surgeon.

Response:

I just went through this.  As it turns out, the best general surgeon in town also has a breast clinic.  He was great!!!  Even though I’ve been declared "normal", he still doesn’t want me to go over six months without seeing him. My ob/gyn had ordered a mammogram and the results came back a catagory 3 (out of six).  He said to retest in six months.  My GP doesn’t like to wait around so he sent me to this surgeon.  He did an exam and had me do another mammogram about four months later.  The spot had not grown and showed no sign of malignancy so it was lowered to a catagory 2.  Had there been any change, he was going to do a core needle biopsy or the ABBI proceedure to see what it was.  I WILL have to have a mammogram every six months for awhile, but, I’d rather keep an eye on it than to have any unexpected suprises.   Now, if you have no family history of breast cancer, the chances of it being cancer are pretty slim.  I read the statistics on how many biopsys actually turn out to be breast cancer.  It was a very small percentage.  It’s hard not to worry, but, try to keep in mind that the odds are in your favor.   I’ll stop rambling now…..you get to the Dr!!! Sherry

Response:

Microcalcification implication

Question:

Get well, be well, then consider beauty and/or aging.

I agree totally.  I waited about a year and a half before deciding to undergo reconstruction.  I really was not all that unhappy with the mastectomy scars and all (my husband is in the medical field so it truly didn’t bother him).   My problem was the #$%^ prosthesis.  I live in a bathing suit all summer and it was so uncomfortable I would have done anything to be rid of it.  Made the decision in February, had the surgery in May, and am ecstatic. …Lisa

Response:

Understand that both breasts PROBABLY (but not always) indicate natural aging process, but I’m NOT a doctor. (Mine didn’t show any microcalcifications or spiculations at ALL! — Am 59 and just had double mastectomy for invasive lobular carcinoma, so you can’t go by that single piece of information.) If you or your wife found/noticed a lump, hardening or thickening, it pays to check it out by a breast clinic if you have one in your area. General practitioners don’t see enough of this stuff to ensure accuracy. Only someone experienced should make the kind of determination you seek. Did report say get it checked further? IF so, do so. Good luck Lady8

Response:

Pete, I personally am very uncomfortable with ‘odds,’ statistics when it comes down to my life.  Breast cancer is multicentric by definition…and don’t take anything for granted.  Too much, already, has been taken for granted.  Women experiencing breast cancer, undergoing surgery, and recon at the same time that their immune systems have already been out of sync for at least 5 years before the diagnosis and finding, are put under anesthesia for 6-12 more hours for the sake of beauty.  Something is wrong with how this disease has been approached!  Get well, be well, then consider beauty and/or aging. Look at the prior 3 annual mammograms, and have them examined in your presence, by two more breast care only radiologists!  And, keep those mammograms yourselves!  Do not let them out of your sight. Same for pathology slides.  And, then, too, get 2nd and 3rd opinions….even ask NIH to give their opinion (You can trust NIH with the slides…but no one else…do not let them out of your eyes sight!). Again. be sure any biopsies are done with a mammotome.

– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – My wife (55) has just gotten her mammography report back showing, for the first time, microcalcification sites in both breasts. I’m wondering, if the calcification is developing in both breasts, isn’t that more likely due to an aging process rather than the beginnings of cancer?  In other words, isn’t it unlikely that tumors would develop simultaneously in both breasts? Thanks, Pete

Response:

Pete, I think it would be extremely unlikely for cancer to develop in both breasts like that, at the same time. All sorts of things can cause calcifications. However, when they show up like that, when previous mammgrams were clear, either the doctors will decide to wait 6 months and repeat the mammo to see if there’s any change, or go ahead and do a biopsy, depending on how the calcifications look. Cancer calcifications actually have a different look than benign ones. If the calcifications are in groups, they will most likely do a biopsy of one of the groups. Good luck, and let us know what the doctors say, ok?–Alice, unofficial queen of calcifications

Response:

My wife (55) has just gotten her mammography report back showing, for the first time, microcalcification sites in both breasts. I’m wondering, if the calcification is developing in both breasts, isn’t that more likely due to an aging process rather than the beginnings of cancer?  In other words, isn’t it unlikely that tumors would develop simultaneously in both breasts? Thanks, Pete

Response:

DOCTOR JAILED FOR FAILING TO DIAGNOSE A BREAST CANCER

Question:

Here is one example of what can happen when there is a failure to diagnose. Can any of you see a parallel here? Donn – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -On Fri, 11 Jun 1999 12:46:53 GMT, clark9…@my-deja.com wrote: >         AS REPORTED BY ASSOCIATED PRESS-JUNE 07 >DOCTOR RECEIVES Two Year Prison Term For failing To >Diagnose Breast Cancer >BARCELONA, Spain, Jun 07 (AP)–A Barcelona court >sentenced a gynecologist to two years in prison after he >failed to dianose his 31 year old patient with breast >cancer, the state run news agency EFE reported Sunday. >The court also banned the physician, whose name was not >publicly released, fron medical practice for two years, >EFE said. >The victim, who was only identified by her initials M.L.T.V., >underwent a mastectomy in May 1997, about one year after she >found a lump in her right breast and brought it to the doctor’s >attention, who said that the lump was due to menstrual troubles. >The court said in the verdict that the doctor relied on >statistics showing that only 5 precent of the lumps in >breasts of 30 year old women are found to be cancerous, >EFE said. >The court orders the gynecologist to award 50 million >pesetas ($322,580) to the patient as the surgery limited >her ability to move her arms. >NOT IN THE AP ARTICLE IS THE FOLLOWING PUBLIC REACTION IN >COLOMBIA: >The general feeling of Colombians is that if the same law >were to be applied in their country, jails will fill with >physicians. >Medicine in Colombia is practice from an economic stand >point for people relying on Social Security, and not from >a Scientific point of view. The reason being that politics >dictates the pace of medicine in that institution that mostly >treat the working class. >Doctors are told how much time they can spend with a patient >and what to prescribe. They cannot prescribe drugs not listed >in the National Therapeutic Manual, issued to doctors by the >Republica de Colombia Ministerio de Salud (Republic of Colombia >Minister of Health. >As a matter of saving money at the expense of people’s health, >most private insurance companies do not cover drugs not listed >in the Minister of Health Manual, which consist of generic brands >of yester-years. Never mind that premiums goes up every year by >some 16 percent. >In Colombia physicians are rewarded for saving money, not for >making the correct diagnosis, which often times calls for extensive >laboratory testing of patient’s fluids. >As a result, false diagnoses of patients illness is quite common >in Colombia. Politics in medicine, and inadequate training of >physicians, are the two main factors behind it.

From Bogota, Columbia

Response:

And this doc got jail! That happened to my cousin six years ago in the UK, a Senior Oncologist told her the lump in her breast could NOT be cancer as she was only 21. He then turned to his students and said the lady was *hysterical*. Six months later she was told (after insisting on biopsy) by the same oncologist that her lump was a cancer that was highly malignant in young women, it killed her. d…@cheetah.net wrote in article <3762520b.828…@news1.cheetah.net>… – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Here is one example of what can happen when there is > a failure to diagnose. Can any of you see a parallel > here? > Donn

Response:

A moral dilemma for a caregive / husband. Please read!

Question:

>Would I feel this way if she never had MS, I doubt it. So it is due to the >disease, but I can’t change the way I feel.

Dear James, Put your wife in front of the computer, let her get rid of her depression with others who know how she feels. She needs to tell people that she fears the loss of her husband, and her life, she needs to share  this with people who ‘ know’ how she’s feeling. She can do so much with a computer no matter how disabled she is. Maybe she could type letters for other people, accounts etc… she can go at her own pace too. In our area a disabled lady takes the phone calls for the local community transport, for a few hours, two or three times a week the calls are redirected to her. She uses her computer to work out routes for the drivers.  Not only has she made lots of friends, but she’s doing something good for the community. Even typing up letters for the local school secretary can be helpful for both the school and your wife. Why not ask at your local churches and find out if they have people  who do visiting. It’s possible that your wife could go to ladies clubs etc.. We have a paraplegic lady who comes to our group, it was an event at first, but then it became routine. Her husband enjoys the freedom too, as well as the concern for his well-being from the women. You will find that the women there will take on the role of  caring during the meetings and sometimes become very good friends. Your local disability organisations may have other suggestions too. Don’t give up without looking for answers because you may do something that you will always regret. Carol

Response:

In article <76rdnm$n7…@news.mcn.net>, "Jim Joyner" <jam…@ytc.org> writes: >Would I feel this way if she never had MS, I doubt it. So it is due to the >disease, but I can’t change the way I feel.

Dear James, Put your wife in front of the computer, let her get rid of her depression with others who know how she feels. She needs to tell people that she fears the loss of her husband, and her life, she needs to share  this with people who ‘ know’ how she’s feeling. She can do so much with a computer no matter how disabled she is. Maybe she could type letters for other people, accounts etc… she can go at her own pace too. In our area a disabled lady takes the phone calls for the local community transport, for a few hours, two or three times a week the calls are redirected to her. She uses her computer to work out routes for the drivers.  Not only has she made lots of friends, but she’s doing something good for the community. Even typing up letters for the local school secretary can be helpful for both the school and your wife. Why not ask at your local churches and find out if they have people  who do visiting. It’s possible that your wife could go to ladies clubs etc.. We have a paraplegic lady who comes to our group, it was an event at first, but then it became routine. Her husband enjoys the freedom too, as well as the concern for his well-being from the women. You will find that the women there will take on the role of  caring during the meetings and sometimes become very good friends. Your local disability organisations may have other suggestions too. Don’t give up without looking for answers because you may do something that you will always regret. Carol

Response:

jbra wrote: > Hello Jim >    Having same problems you are with my wife. I emailed you about it but > thjust learned how to send msg  to news group. Write back if you got

Dear Jim and Mr. Bradley (or is Bradley the first name?)  > You are so right about caregivers needing support.  Support helps everyone, patients included.  We, the patients, know that it is difficult being a caregiver and we often feel guilty for addign to your load.  That can result in us trying to do too much and causing more problems or various emotional reactions, sometimes depression, sometimes anger, etc.  We don’t like being dependent, but that is the position we find ourselves in. You find yourselves in a similarly difficult position, but one difference is that you can leave if you choose.  That is a possibility that we patients fear most, and the statistics about marriages that fail when facing a chronic illness bear this out. Those who are committed to providing care are wonderful, but being human, you need help.  Depending on the patient’s needs,  being a caregiver can be a fulltime job.  Add to that being a homemaker, child caregiver, job holder, and someone trying to maintain relationships with friends and family, it is evident that 1 person cannot do it all for long.  I am gald you are speaking out about this problem.  So many others will try to carry on, not asking for help until they are ready to collapse.  I am haertened by the recent proposal for a tax credit for caregivers.  Now if Congress can just get done with a certain issue and get on with other important issues! There are resources available.  If you are involved with a homehealth agency, ask for a consultation with their social worker to find out what your options are.  Your MSS often have social workers who can do the same.  There are a lot of options out there, some expensive, some for free if you qualify.  I recently posted some options to James and I also posted an additonal list to the group last night.  If you didn’t get them, let me know and I’ll repeat. One of the most important resources is close to you–family, friends, and neifhbors.  Ask them when you need help.  That is very difficult for a lot of folks to do.  You don’t want to be a burden, or impose on others.  But most people are more than happy to help out.  Most often they don’t know what to do to help.  Oftentimes, you will be giving them an opportunity to feel good about what they are able to do to help out and to show you and the patient how much they care about them. When someone says Call me if you need anything, take them up on it.  Pin them down about what they’re willing to do.  Maybe it’s running errands, sitting the kids, answering mail, making a meal, etc.  Someone may be willing to be a volunteer care coordinator, helping to determine who is doing what and making assignments.  I saw this work beautifully when my sister-in-law was dying of breast cancer.  Her husband was very busy running his own business and trying to care for their 7 kids.  A church member became their coordinator, and there was someone from the church helping every day.  They did not have to make a dinner meal for more than a year. Another reason I encourage people to ask for help from those around them is that too many people are alone and our society has become too fragmented.  We need to renew the sense of community. I hope things look up for you.  This is a good place to vent and also to get some good information.  Take care. Irene

Response:

In article <astarte-ya02408000R0401992139280…@news.earthlink.net>, asta…@cyberg8t.com (Atara Stein) writes: >I understand your feeling trapped.  At the same time, you have to think >about what would happen if the situation were reversed.  Would your wife >take care of you?  I’m hardly someone to claim that all marriage vows are >sacred forever, but I think that in this situation, you can’t abandon your >wife.  And what about your son?

Exactly.  Would she take care of him. Probably.  If he leaves her now he is a person without a conscience. He nees to get respite care that will give him a break a fw hours at a time. And to get osme counseling. Kaathi

Response:

Hello Jim    Having same problems you are with my wife. I emailed you about it but thjust learned how to send msg  to news group. Write back if you got msg – Jim – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -Jim Joyner wrote in message <76rdnm$n7…@news.mcn.net>… >Hello everyone. >I am writing this to see if others have experienced the same type of feeling >/ dilemma I am currently facing. I will try to explain my position & >situation in the most detail so you can understand what I’m going through >personally. Any comments and replies are welcomed as I need to hear from >others about this. So please read and reply if you like

new gene therapy to help reconstruction of blood vessels

Question:

   Path: news.mich.com!trellis.wwnet.com!news.bconnex.net!rock.    goldengate.net!chippy.visi.com!news-out.visi.com!news.maxwell.syr.    ed Newsgroups: misc.health.diabetes    Lines: 4    NNTP-Posting-Host: ladder02.news.aol.com    Organization: AOL http://www.aol.com    Xref: news.mich.com misc.health.diabetes:224536    My friend has diabetes 2 and has lost one foot due to it.  The    wound in his other foot will not heal; the bacteria have become    resistant to antibiotics. we understand there is a new gene therapy    that may help.  anyone know anything about it; please reply by    e-mail. thank-you

Response:

My friend has diabetes 2 and has lost one foot due to it.  The wound in his other foot will not heal; the bacteria have become resistant to antibiotics. we understand there is a new gene therapy that may help.  anyone know anything about it; please reply by e-mail. thank-you

Dr VINIG IN NORTHFORK VIRGINA. BUT PLEAS HELP US: – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text – NOW IS THE TIME TO BECOM ACTIVE AND FOLLOW YOUR HEART. Dear President Clinton: More than 16 million Americans have diabetes.  It costs America more than $137 billion a year.  But for some reason, diabetes research is not a national priority. In the last ten years, diabetes research lost ground to higher profile diseases. Last year, you and Speaker Gingrich increased diabetes research by $30 million. That